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it All Began more than 10 years ago with

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I never got any money from you

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[Music]

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UFO why just as well stand for

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unprecedented Financial opportunity

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[Applause]

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be normal

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this is the saucer life a podcast in

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which we examine Concepts events for

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people orbiting the world of flying

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saucers few preconceptions snark when

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Justified no belief no debunking today

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we're going to fulfill a large number of

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requests from over the years and cover

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the notorious 1989 Mutual UFO Network

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symposium

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of course this being the saucer life

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we're not just going to focus on that

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one notorious speech by William L Moore

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that this conference is mostly known for

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rather we're going to look at the year

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leading up to that in the pages of the

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mufon journal and elsewhere and the

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build up to the conference and the

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growing split within ufology at the time

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that was developing and in many ways

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came to a head here in 1989. of course

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the speech by more is the sort of

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centerpiece of everything but it's more

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than the speech no pun intended so

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there's a lot going on so we best get

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started

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as we begin this look at the mufon 1989

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Symposium and the the news that came out

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of it it's important to realize there

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are some things going on in ufology that

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are relevant to what we're talking about

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today one of these things was the

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explosion of claims that were gaining

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popularity from people like John Lear

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and Bill Cooper

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and Bill English and we've talked about

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all three of those guys at various

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points over the last five years on the

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saucer life so I'm not going to get into

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it too deeply but if you'll remember if

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I can jog your memory a bit or introduce

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these topics these these men and their

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topics a little bit basically we're

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seeing the growth of the sort of dark

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side hypothesis of ufology where there

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are Sinister underground bases and there

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are Splinter groups within the

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government that have engaged in secret

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diplomacy with the aliens and the aliens

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are abducting people and implanting them

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and they're going to come take over at

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some point that's a very sort of brief

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and rough summary of all this but it

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ties into the abduction phenomenon that

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was

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um

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it's gonna say gaining popularity but

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becoming more prominent at the time

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let's say so that's that's one strand of

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things that's going on another one and

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probably the other major one that's

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happening at this time is the continuing

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controversy over the mj-12 documents

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these supposed government documents

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dating from The Truman Administration

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that set up a committee to basically run

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the government's UFO

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operation and William Moore and Jamie

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chandaray and Stanton T Friedman were

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promoting these documents and promoting

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their

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probable reality

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um debunking efforts have been going on

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since those um those documents have have

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emerged there are still some people who

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believe

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they are they are genuine but it was a

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real fight uh dominating uh dominating

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the pages of the mufon journal in 1988

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and 1989. and I don't think we're oh

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gosh eventually some at some point we

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might do an episode about the mj-12

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papers but golly I uh I would greatly

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prefer prefer not to but in in this

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January issue of the mufon journal as we

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start looking at 1989 leading up to the

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July Symposium we have an article by

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Bill Moore called mj12 and open letter

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and and basically this is this is more

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striking back not just at the attempts

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to debunk the mj-12 documents as

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um as being a forgery but attacks

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against Moore himself now we've talked

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about more previously on the show in our

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Philadelphia Experiment episode he

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co-wrote that book

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with Charles berlitz and he also

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co-wrote uh the book the first book

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about the Roswell UFO crash a few years

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after that in the late 70s and then into

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the early 80s more had been an

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investigator with apro uh which with

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which were very familiar here on the on

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the show and was a member of the apro

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board in the 1970s and into the 1980s so

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he wasn't just a writer who picked up on

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these paranormal or UFO topics he was an

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active member of the UFO community and

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his advocacy for the mj-12 documents was

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was a drawing some negative attention to

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him and this article this open letter is

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an attempt not just to defend the mj-12

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documents but to defend his own

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first of all let me Begin by stating for

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the record that I am not a forger a

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hoaxer a fabricator or a counterfeiter

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nor to the best of my knowledge have I

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ever participated in any illegal or

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Un-American activity in connection with

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my more than eight year involvement with

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the mj-12 controversy furthermore to the

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best of my knowledge and belief none of

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my colleagues and Associates has

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participated in any such activities

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either

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rumors circulating to the effect that I

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am some sort of government agent or

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disinformation expert are totally false

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in spite of pronouncements made

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principally by John Lear and others

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associated with him I'm not on the US

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governments or any other government's

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payroll

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[Music]

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Moore goes on to explain that he has not

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reached a definite conclusion about the

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authenticity of the mj-12 documents he

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says it remains an open question but

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it's not just the mj-12 documents that

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he is concerned about he's also

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concerned about some responses from

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people in ufology about the at that

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point recently aired TV special UFO

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cover-up live and there were on that

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show a couple of hidden and

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voice-changed people going by the names

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Falcon and Condor who claimed to be

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government insiders with knowledge of

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the UFO cover-up and more condemns as

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inappropriate in his words quote the

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continuing high level of sheer

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speculation concerning the true

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identities of the two sources who

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appeared on the UFO cover-up live show

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under the code names Falcon and condor

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end quote so

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I don't I mean it might be fruitless to

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have speculated at that time who those

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people were and we might be doing a UFO

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cover-up live episode at some point I

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don't know

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um maybe that's more of a patreon thing

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it's a little indulgent to sort of

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listen along to parts of a TV show

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um but in any case uh might have been

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fruitless to speculate on who those men

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were but

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um I don't know if inappropriate is

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um is is the right word people

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are going to sort of see value in

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determining who these supposed insiders

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might be and whether or not they are

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they are credible so this open letter

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mostly is about more defending his own

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Integrity from assaults on it by the uh

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by the UFO community over the mj-12

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documents over his participation in the

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uh in the TV special or his knowledge of

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the TV special and also honestly

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um his reluctance to share information

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about these things his reluctance to be

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as fully transparent as some within the

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UFO Community might want him to be in

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the February 1989 issue of the mufon UFO

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Journal we get the announcement about

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the 1989 International UFO Symposium and

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what that's going to be about and who's

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the theme for the mufon 1989

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International UFO Symposium in Las Vegas

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Nevada at the Aladdin Hotel and Casino

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on June 30th July 1st and 2nd will be

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the UFO cover-up a government conspiracy

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speakers presently committed are William

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L Bill Moore Donald A Johnson Ph.D John

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E Brandenburg PhD Stanton T Friedman

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Timothy Goode Linda Moulton Howe Jenny

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zeidman and John o'lear five of these

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speakers will relate intriguing new

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information involved in the U.S

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government's conspiracy to hide the real

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evidence behind the UFO phenomenon John

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Lear state director for Nevada will

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serve as the host chairman with Hal

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Starr state director for Arizona co-host

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I think my favorite thing about this is

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that the the topic the sort of title for

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the Symposium is the UFO cover-up a

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government conspiracy question mark and

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then they they go on to say that the

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speakers will relate new information uh

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about the government's conspiracy to

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hide the real evidence behind the UFO

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phenomenon so they've answered the

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question

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before we even get to the Symposium I

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just

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they they don't need they don't need the

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question mark after a government

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conspiracy by May in the May issue of

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the UFO journal the program would be

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fleshed out a little bit uh Lear and

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star would be welcoming everybody to Las

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Vegas and to the Symposium Walt Andrus

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the international director would give

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greetings uh Jenny zeidman would be

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talking about the Mansfield helicopter

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case Donald Johnson would present a talk

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entitled a survey of UFO vehicle

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disruptions

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sounds

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riveting

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um Don Berliner would talk about a

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hypothetical plan for crash retrieval

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Robert eschler we'll talk about the

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Chesapeake connection Corporate America

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and the UFO cover-up which sounds good

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Linda Moulton Howe will and this is

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shocking talk about cattle mutilations

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Timothy good we'll talk about Above Top

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Secret which was his his book which I

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had I don't think I have it anymore but

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I hadn't I think many who get involved

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in ufology around this time will end up

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owning at some point

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in the evening of Saturday July 1st

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William Moore is going to talk about the

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status of the UFO situation in

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1989. Stan Friedman is going to give an

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update on mj-12 and there will be a

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panel discussion about whether or not

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the UFO cover-up is a government

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conspiracy on Saturday July 2nd Jacques

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valet would talk about claims of UFO

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related injuries in Brazil John

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Brandenburg will talk about the sidonian

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hypothesis the only time you're talking

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about cydonia and you don't have Richard

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Hoagland on the stage you are leaving

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money on the table and everything would

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be finished up with a q a panel of

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Saturday's speakers this sounds like a a

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a a very sort of sedate

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kind of thing there's nothing really

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terrifying there's nothing really

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cutting edge here there's nothing really

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that screams apart from mj12 that

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screams 1989. there's no there's no

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alien abduction stuff here which is

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fascinating there is no

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um government uh deals with the aliens

277
00:12:35,690 --> 00:12:33,839
there's no underground bases there

278
00:12:40,250 --> 00:12:35,700
really aren't any of the things that we

279
00:12:42,650 --> 00:12:40,260
associate with 1989 or really that that

280
00:12:45,710 --> 00:12:42,660
uh that whole period apart from the

281
00:12:48,590 --> 00:12:45,720
mj-12 thing so

282
00:12:50,150 --> 00:12:48,600
that's not an original observation I

283
00:12:53,389 --> 00:12:50,160
just had another person who had that

284
00:12:56,389 --> 00:12:53,399
observation was the co-host

285
00:13:01,009 --> 00:12:56,399
John Lear the mufon state section

286
00:13:02,629 --> 00:13:01,019
director for Nevada he explained his

287
00:13:05,389 --> 00:13:02,639
reaction to seeing this tentative

288
00:13:07,310 --> 00:13:05,399
program in the book pale horse rider

289
00:13:09,829 --> 00:13:07,320
William Cooper the rise of conspiracy

290
00:13:11,629 --> 00:13:09,839
and the fall of trust in America by Mark

291
00:13:14,710 --> 00:13:11,639
Jacobson this is a very good biography

292
00:13:17,329 --> 00:13:14,720
of William Cooper and for this book

293
00:13:19,910 --> 00:13:17,339
Jacobson interviewed John Lear about

294
00:13:25,850 --> 00:13:19,920
these these years when his path and

295
00:13:29,690 --> 00:13:27,889
Lear demanded that he be allowed to

296
00:13:31,850 --> 00:13:29,700
submit a list of presenters these

297
00:13:33,470 --> 00:13:31,860
included himself Don Ecker then the

298
00:13:35,930 --> 00:13:33,480
research director of UFO magazine

299
00:13:37,250 --> 00:13:35,940
ufologist Bill English and Bill Cooper

300
00:13:40,129 --> 00:13:37,260
who would read his secret government

301
00:13:42,170 --> 00:13:40,139
paper that idea was vetoed by the Krusty

302
00:13:44,269 --> 00:13:42,180
69 year old founder and head of mufon

303
00:13:46,250 --> 00:13:44,279
Walt Andrus a driving force behind

304
00:13:47,990 --> 00:13:46,260
mufon's attempt to legitimize ephology

305
00:13:50,210 --> 00:13:48,000
through an intricate system of field

306
00:13:51,829 --> 00:13:50,220
research Andrus had no use for wild

307
00:13:54,889 --> 00:13:51,839
speculation that he regarded as

308
00:13:56,569 --> 00:13:54,899
unscientific and unpatriotic he refused

309
00:13:59,329 --> 00:13:56,579
to allow lear's speakers to present

310
00:14:01,550 --> 00:13:59,339
their papers I blew up Lear told me when

311
00:14:03,710 --> 00:14:01,560
I visited him Andrus was taking my own

312
00:14:05,269 --> 00:14:03,720
conference away from me I told him if he

313
00:14:07,129 --> 00:14:05,279
wasn't going to let us talk I'd hire

314
00:14:08,810 --> 00:14:07,139
another Hall down the strip the people

315
00:14:10,970 --> 00:14:08,820
would follow us there and our speakers

316
00:14:12,470 --> 00:14:10,980
would out draw his he must have known I

317
00:14:16,610 --> 00:14:12,480
was right because we wound up speaking

318
00:14:22,790 --> 00:14:18,949
one thing that I found interesting about

319
00:14:25,730 --> 00:14:22,800
that snippet from John Lear to Mark

320
00:14:27,889 --> 00:14:25,740
Jacobson is that Lear very much gives

321
00:14:30,470 --> 00:14:27,899
the impression with his we were allowed

322
00:14:31,970 --> 00:14:30,480
to speak at the Aladdin after all with

323
00:14:35,269 --> 00:14:31,980
that little line he gives the impression

324
00:14:37,670 --> 00:14:35,279
that Andrus caved that Lear said we'll

325
00:14:39,769 --> 00:14:37,680
we'll out draw you we'll run a show down

326
00:14:42,050 --> 00:14:39,779
the street and Andrew said fine fine

327
00:14:46,490 --> 00:14:42,060
gosh I don't want that to happen leer

328
00:14:49,610 --> 00:14:46,500
makes it sound like him and Ecker and

329
00:14:51,769 --> 00:14:49,620
Cooper and English became part of the

330
00:14:54,050 --> 00:14:51,779
mufon UFO Symposium that's the

331
00:14:58,550 --> 00:14:54,060
impression that he gives and that did

332
00:15:00,290 --> 00:14:58,560
not happen those men did speak at

333
00:15:02,509 --> 00:15:00,300
um well I know at least Lear and Cooper

334
00:15:05,269 --> 00:15:02,519
in English did I I believe Ecker did as

335
00:15:08,030 --> 00:15:05,279
well they did speak at the Aladdin

336
00:15:10,370 --> 00:15:08,040
possibly some people's memories are

337
00:15:11,750 --> 00:15:10,380
confused I've seen and heard both things

338
00:15:13,730 --> 00:15:11,760
from people that they were at the

339
00:15:16,370 --> 00:15:13,740
Aladdin but maybe not but they were not

340
00:15:19,129 --> 00:15:16,380
part of the official mufon program but

341
00:15:21,350 --> 00:15:19,139
we're seeing a split in ufology here and

342
00:15:24,889 --> 00:15:21,360
this split was precipitated in some ways

343
00:15:27,170 --> 00:15:24,899
by the mj-12 documents without the mj-12

344
00:15:30,170 --> 00:15:27,180
documents you don't have sort of that

345
00:15:31,910 --> 00:15:30,180
documented evidence of a cabal of

346
00:15:34,910 --> 00:15:31,920
government officials running a UFO

347
00:15:37,850 --> 00:15:34,920
cover-up and that notion was key to what

348
00:15:42,170 --> 00:15:37,860
Lear and Cooper and English were saying

349
00:15:45,290 --> 00:15:42,180
you don't have as much support for those

350
00:15:48,110 --> 00:15:45,300
very outlandish claims without the

351
00:15:50,990 --> 00:15:48,120
slightly less outlandish claims that

352
00:15:53,870 --> 00:15:51,000
Moore and Friedman and chandaray were

353
00:15:57,050 --> 00:15:53,880
making about the mj-12 documents so

354
00:16:02,030 --> 00:15:57,060
mj-12 is part of the official mufon

355
00:16:05,870 --> 00:16:02,040
Symposium but the chaotic conspiracy

356
00:16:09,170 --> 00:16:05,880
stories wrought in part by mj12 are not

357
00:16:12,110 --> 00:16:09,180
going to be so as we get into June of

358
00:16:16,189 --> 00:16:12,120
1989 we're a month away from the

359
00:16:19,250 --> 00:16:16,199
conference and mj12 is rearing its head

360
00:16:24,889 --> 00:16:19,260
again in the pages of the mufon UFO

361
00:16:26,389 --> 00:16:24,899
Journal as is the question of Bill

362
00:16:31,129 --> 00:16:26,399
Moore's

363
00:16:34,970 --> 00:16:31,139
integrity and connection to not just the

364
00:16:38,689 --> 00:16:34,980
MJ 12 question but to possibly larger

365
00:16:41,030 --> 00:16:38,699
issues with the government and UFOs

366
00:16:45,110 --> 00:16:41,040
Robert Hastings wrote an article

367
00:16:47,930 --> 00:16:45,120
entitled mj12 facts questions and

368
00:16:50,990 --> 00:16:47,940
comments and it's not just about mj-12

369
00:16:56,930 --> 00:16:51,000
but it's also about UFO cover-up live

370
00:17:00,949 --> 00:16:59,269
it has been established the Falcon one

371
00:17:03,470 --> 00:17:00,959
of the principal sources of the mj-12

372
00:17:05,569 --> 00:17:03,480
material is Richard C Doty formerly

373
00:17:08,449 --> 00:17:05,579
attached to District 17 Air Force office

374
00:17:10,429 --> 00:17:08,459
of special investigations afosi at

375
00:17:12,710 --> 00:17:10,439
Kirtland Air Force Base Albuquerque New

376
00:17:15,710 --> 00:17:12,720
Mexico Sergeant Doty retired from the

377
00:17:17,929 --> 00:17:15,720
U.S Air Force on October 1st 1988. how

378
00:17:19,610 --> 00:17:17,939
do I know that Dodie is Falcon during a

379
00:17:21,230 --> 00:17:19,620
recent telephone conversation Linda

380
00:17:23,210 --> 00:17:21,240
Moulton Howe told me that when Sergeant

381
00:17:25,069 --> 00:17:23,220
Dodie invited her to his office at

382
00:17:27,530 --> 00:17:25,079
Kirtland Air Force Base in early April

383
00:17:29,330 --> 00:17:27,540
1983 and showed her a purportedly

384
00:17:31,970 --> 00:17:29,340
authentic U.S government document on

385
00:17:34,250 --> 00:17:31,980
UFOs he identified himself as codenamed

386
00:17:35,700 --> 00:17:34,260
Falcon and stated it was Bill Moore who

387
00:17:37,730 --> 00:17:35,710
had given him that name

388
00:17:40,669 --> 00:17:37,740
[Music]

389
00:17:44,210 --> 00:17:40,679
but that's not the only place that Dodie

390
00:17:47,930 --> 00:17:44,220
shows up related to UFOs according to

391
00:17:50,029 --> 00:17:47,940
Hastings Hastings also goes into the

392
00:17:53,750 --> 00:17:50,039
story of something called the Weitzel

393
00:17:55,730 --> 00:17:53,760
hoax basically in 1981 apro received an

394
00:17:59,090 --> 00:17:55,740
anonymous letter from somebody who said

395
00:18:01,850 --> 00:17:59,100
they were an Airman assigned to Kirtland

396
00:18:04,130 --> 00:18:01,860
Air Force Base they had a UFO sighting

397
00:18:07,370 --> 00:18:04,140
alongside other Witnesses including

398
00:18:09,350 --> 00:18:07,380
somebody named Craig Wetzel or white

399
00:18:12,289 --> 00:18:09,360
Soul the letter says that Weitzel

400
00:18:14,330 --> 00:18:12,299
reported the sighting to a Mr Doty at

401
00:18:17,330 --> 00:18:14,340
Kirtland Air Force Base the office of

402
00:18:20,810 --> 00:18:17,340
special investigations unit there a

403
00:18:22,970 --> 00:18:20,820
researcher contacted Weitzel in 1985. he

404
00:18:26,630 --> 00:18:22,980
said Weitzel says yes I I did report a

405
00:18:29,870 --> 00:18:26,640
UFO sighting to Richard Doty in 1980 but

406
00:18:31,909 --> 00:18:29,880
it wasn't anything like the sort of

407
00:18:34,190 --> 00:18:31,919
Close Encounter of the Third Kind style

408
00:18:37,490 --> 00:18:34,200
experience that was described in that

409
00:18:40,310 --> 00:18:37,500
Anonymous letter and the letter also

410
00:18:44,150 --> 00:18:40,320
said that Weitzel had been

411
00:18:47,930 --> 00:18:44,160
ordered to turn over photographs of the

412
00:18:49,730 --> 00:18:47,940
UFO by a mysterious nameless individual

413
00:18:52,549 --> 00:18:49,740
so basically there had been a UFO

414
00:18:55,850 --> 00:18:52,559
sighting but the letter that was sent to

415
00:18:58,730 --> 00:18:55,860
apro didn't resemble the sighting that

416
00:19:00,770 --> 00:18:58,740
actually uh actually happened

417
00:19:03,350 --> 00:19:00,780
um the upshot of all this is that

418
00:19:06,110 --> 00:19:03,360
Hastings through some investigation

419
00:19:08,990 --> 00:19:06,120
um concludes that uh the anonymous

420
00:19:11,210 --> 00:19:09,000
letter that was sent to apro was almost

421
00:19:13,549 --> 00:19:11,220
certainly those are his words typed on

422
00:19:17,510 --> 00:19:13,559
the same typewriter that Dodie had used

423
00:19:19,610 --> 00:19:17,520
to type another form that we know

424
00:19:21,950 --> 00:19:19,620
through the provenance of where the form

425
00:19:24,830 --> 00:19:21,960
came from was typed by Dodie so

426
00:19:26,930 --> 00:19:24,840
basically the typewriter was the same

427
00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:26,940
between this and mj-12 there's a whole

428
00:19:34,970 --> 00:19:30,660
lot of typewriter letter analysis going

429
00:19:36,350 --> 00:19:34,980
on in the 1980s so there is Hastings

430
00:19:38,690 --> 00:19:36,360
says

431
00:19:43,310 --> 00:19:38,700
um a little bit of connection between

432
00:19:47,630 --> 00:19:43,320
this Richard character and Air Force

433
00:19:50,990 --> 00:19:47,640
efforts to mess with UFO investigation

434
00:19:54,110 --> 00:19:51,000
agencies now about Bill Moore Hastings

435
00:19:58,010 --> 00:19:56,090
on the face of it he appears to be just

436
00:20:00,289 --> 00:19:58,020
a UFO researcher who's been approached

437
00:20:02,270 --> 00:20:00,299
by questionable government sources I

438
00:20:04,130 --> 00:20:02,280
have information however that raises

439
00:20:06,950 --> 00:20:04,140
doubts about his Public Image is merely

440
00:20:09,350 --> 00:20:06,960
a civilian researcher indeed it appears

441
00:20:13,850 --> 00:20:09,360
as if he may be working or half worked

442
00:20:17,330 --> 00:20:13,860
for one of the U.S intelligence agencies

443
00:20:20,390 --> 00:20:17,340
so Bill Moore may not be who he seems to

444
00:20:23,330 --> 00:20:20,400
be the question is what is Bill Moore up

445
00:20:26,270 --> 00:20:23,340
to or what had he been up to is it

446
00:20:28,730 --> 00:20:26,280
bigger than the mj-12 documents is there

447
00:20:31,549 --> 00:20:28,740
something else going on

448
00:20:33,650 --> 00:20:31,559
so there's some speculation and I think

449
00:20:37,130 --> 00:20:33,660
it's it's an interesting way of thinking

450
00:20:39,350 --> 00:20:37,140
about it is this article by Robert

451
00:20:41,930 --> 00:20:39,360
Hastings and this was far from the only

452
00:20:44,450 --> 00:20:41,940
thing out there that questioned what

453
00:20:45,710 --> 00:20:44,460
Moore was actually up to with this mj-12

454
00:20:50,029 --> 00:20:45,720
stuff

455
00:20:53,870 --> 00:20:50,039
sort of raises the question what what

456
00:20:59,270 --> 00:20:53,880
was more originally going to say in

457
00:21:02,150 --> 00:20:59,280
July 1989 at the mufon UFO symposium

458
00:21:04,430 --> 00:21:02,160
because the speech he gave that July at

459
00:21:07,190 --> 00:21:04,440
that Symposium is

460
00:21:11,090 --> 00:21:07,200
in many ways sort of a response to what

461
00:21:12,650 --> 00:21:11,100
Hastings is writing here and if this

462
00:21:14,510 --> 00:21:12,660
type of speculation hadn't been out

463
00:21:15,890 --> 00:21:14,520
there I don't know I'm not sure the

464
00:21:17,630 --> 00:21:15,900
speech would have turned out like it did

465
00:21:21,110 --> 00:21:17,640
so how did the speech turn out what

466
00:21:23,690 --> 00:21:21,120
happens in July 1989 at the mufon

467
00:21:26,630 --> 00:21:23,700
Symposium we're going to go through that

468
00:21:31,789 --> 00:21:26,640
speech when we come back

469
00:21:35,750 --> 00:21:33,830
if you like the saucer life and want

470
00:21:37,970 --> 00:21:35,760
more and want to support us you can

471
00:21:40,270 --> 00:21:37,980
support us in exchange for bonus content

472
00:21:42,710 --> 00:21:40,280
you can check it out at patreon.com

473
00:21:44,990 --> 00:21:42,720
chisomedia or via the link in the show

474
00:21:47,870 --> 00:21:45,000
notes there's bonus episodes uh other

475
00:21:50,690 --> 00:21:47,880
things happening a lot

476
00:21:52,909 --> 00:21:50,700
um on a monthly basis and more often

477
00:21:54,289 --> 00:21:52,919
depending on what the things are and

478
00:21:56,570 --> 00:21:54,299
what month it is you can go check it out

479
00:21:59,570 --> 00:21:56,580
there's a Year's worth of bonus material

480
00:22:01,730 --> 00:21:59,580
up there as well and thank you so much

481
00:22:04,070 --> 00:22:01,740
to those who are already supporting us

482
00:22:06,110 --> 00:22:04,080
you can check out past episodes at

483
00:22:09,230 --> 00:22:06,120
saucerlife.com or wherever you get

484
00:22:10,970 --> 00:22:09,240
podcasts and we're on uh Twitter and

485
00:22:14,510 --> 00:22:10,980
Instagram at saucerlife and you can

486
00:22:17,870 --> 00:22:14,520
email us at thesauce or life at gmail

487
00:22:21,110 --> 00:22:17,880
Dot Com or you can contact us by post at

488
00:22:25,130 --> 00:22:21,120
chisomedia PO Box 68 Grand Blanc

489
00:22:31,730 --> 00:22:28,430
um some feedback from our um our episode

490
00:22:35,090 --> 00:22:31,740
our second episode about Bob Bernard

491
00:22:37,010 --> 00:22:35,100
um doc Pinko on the patreon says uh the

492
00:22:39,049 --> 00:22:37,020
argument for piling up the nukes is the

493
00:22:41,390 --> 00:22:39,059
idea of mutually assured destruction and

494
00:22:43,850 --> 00:22:41,400
others have commented on the accuracy of

495
00:22:45,409 --> 00:22:43,860
the Mad acronym the argument is that if

496
00:22:46,909 --> 00:22:45,419
both sides have enough nukes to destroy

497
00:22:48,710 --> 00:22:46,919
the other then neither side will use it

498
00:22:50,330 --> 00:22:48,720
so the ironic argument is that

499
00:22:52,730 --> 00:22:50,340
increasing the number of nukes makes it

500
00:22:54,049 --> 00:22:52,740
less likely for them to be used I'm not

501
00:22:56,029 --> 00:22:54,059
supporting that position but that's an

502
00:22:58,789 --> 00:22:56,039
argument put forward and this is a

503
00:23:01,549 --> 00:22:58,799
reference to the the image in renaud's

504
00:23:03,950 --> 00:23:01,559
contact ebook of uh the aliens saying

505
00:23:05,450 --> 00:23:03,960
you're piling nuclear weapons up on

506
00:23:07,850 --> 00:23:05,460
either side of a wall and one of them

507
00:23:10,789 --> 00:23:07,860
may tip over and and yeah I I didn't

508
00:23:12,950 --> 00:23:10,799
really put it together mutually assured

509
00:23:15,049 --> 00:23:12,960
destruction angle on that that's what

510
00:23:18,169 --> 00:23:15,059
they were criticizing but um

511
00:23:20,029 --> 00:23:18,179
but yeah yeah absolutely uh Laura says

512
00:23:21,590 --> 00:23:20,039
comprehensive birth control is a topic I

513
00:23:24,169 --> 00:23:21,600
never quite expected to hear during a

514
00:23:26,990 --> 00:23:24,179
contact D Story the ER the term is so

515
00:23:29,029 --> 00:23:27,000
Earth serious and not very space agey

516
00:23:30,590 --> 00:23:29,039
Bob Bernard reminds me of the creator of

517
00:23:33,169 --> 00:23:30,600
the Georgia Guidestones although

518
00:23:34,669 --> 00:23:33,179
renaud's imagination is far more fun

519
00:23:36,649 --> 00:23:34,679
the first thing that came to mind about

520
00:23:38,510 --> 00:23:36,659
the completely edible food was the

521
00:23:41,750 --> 00:23:38,520
Indian company that makes edible Cutlery

522
00:23:43,909 --> 00:23:41,760
from Millet and other flowers uh maybe

523
00:23:46,610 --> 00:23:43,919
the Corinthians were thinking ahead in

524
00:23:48,289 --> 00:23:46,620
Earth time in sustainability I've never

525
00:23:53,450 --> 00:23:48,299
heard of this edible Cutlery thing

526
00:23:55,490 --> 00:23:53,460
that's a brilliant idea uh Tim on

527
00:23:58,730 --> 00:23:55,500
Twitter says come on man you couldn't

528
00:24:00,710 --> 00:23:58,740
call it his Bobble ganger feels like a

529
00:24:04,250 --> 00:24:00,720
missed opportunity yes I use the term

530
00:24:06,909 --> 00:24:04,260
doppelganger for the the alien double of

531
00:24:09,590 --> 00:24:06,919
um Bob or not and bobbleganger is

532
00:24:13,970 --> 00:24:09,600
so much better

533
00:24:16,370 --> 00:24:13,980
Kyle on the patreon notes that

534
00:24:18,950 --> 00:24:16,380
um the raelians are involved in the

535
00:24:20,810 --> 00:24:18,960
anti-uh female genital mutilation

536
00:24:22,310 --> 00:24:20,820
movement and they actually have a

537
00:24:23,990 --> 00:24:22,320
charity

538
00:24:25,490 --> 00:24:24,000
um for the cause which is which is

539
00:24:28,250 --> 00:24:25,500
fascinating

540
00:24:29,930 --> 00:24:28,260
um Paul on the patreon says love these

541
00:24:32,330 --> 00:24:29,940
episodes any hope of getting a serpo

542
00:24:36,070 --> 00:24:32,340
episode this year

543
00:24:40,430 --> 00:24:36,080
yes probably or failing that an episode

544
00:24:43,789 --> 00:24:40,440
about the esteemed Dr Peter beater and

545
00:24:46,730 --> 00:24:43,799
his organic robot toys yes there will be

546
00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:46,740
a Peter beater episode at some point if

547
00:24:53,390 --> 00:24:49,860
you're not in the loop on Dr beater

548
00:24:56,529 --> 00:24:53,400
um it's it's a trip it's not

549
00:24:59,770 --> 00:24:56,539
super saucer-centric but it's definitely

550
00:25:02,510 --> 00:24:59,780
within the Wheelhouse of things we cover

551
00:25:04,549 --> 00:25:02,520
here on the show

552
00:25:07,789 --> 00:25:04,559
um another listener on Instagram uh

553
00:25:10,870 --> 00:25:07,799
idmill uh proposes the um the food

554
00:25:14,390 --> 00:25:10,880
source in the container is probably spam

555
00:25:16,970 --> 00:25:14,400
or they say any other weird shelf-stable

556
00:25:19,250 --> 00:25:16,980
meat product from Hormel

557
00:25:21,409 --> 00:25:19,260
um yeah that stuff's I mean spam is not

558
00:25:23,390 --> 00:25:21,419
weird it's just sort of processed pork

559
00:25:24,230 --> 00:25:23,400
shoulder but some of the other stuff is

560
00:25:26,390 --> 00:25:24,240
just

561
00:25:28,970 --> 00:25:26,400
awful I remember

562
00:25:30,169 --> 00:25:28,980
um at one point when I was when I was

563
00:25:33,289 --> 00:25:30,179
younger

564
00:25:35,210 --> 00:25:33,299
um a friend sort of clueing me into uh

565
00:25:38,210 --> 00:25:35,220
the the horrible sort of visceral

566
00:25:41,930 --> 00:25:38,220
feeling of of illness when you pick up a

567
00:25:43,549 --> 00:25:41,940
can of pork brains in milk gravy sort of

568
00:25:46,250 --> 00:25:43,559
canned pork brains and milk gravy

569
00:25:49,310 --> 00:25:46,260
gravery gravy and you shake it and and

570
00:25:51,769 --> 00:25:49,320
sort of the the sound and feel of that

571
00:25:54,049 --> 00:25:51,779
product in the can it's very uh very

572
00:25:56,870 --> 00:25:54,059
troubling I like to think the uh space

573
00:26:00,289 --> 00:25:56,880
brothers and sisters have moved beyond

574
00:26:03,649 --> 00:26:00,299
that sort of thing and and finally

575
00:26:05,750 --> 00:26:03,659
um uh correspondent Lester uh says uh

576
00:26:07,549 --> 00:26:05,760
Jack Brewer a friend of the show has

577
00:26:09,409 --> 00:26:07,559
demonstrated connections between nycap

578
00:26:11,450 --> 00:26:09,419
and the CIA but what about the

579
00:26:13,370 --> 00:26:11,460
competition apro were they connected

580
00:26:15,950 --> 00:26:13,380
with CIA FBI some other government

581
00:26:17,570 --> 00:26:15,960
outfit the Collins Elite Nick Redfern

582
00:26:20,510 --> 00:26:17,580
writes about

583
00:26:22,310 --> 00:26:20,520
um I I think this episode will at least

584
00:26:25,430 --> 00:26:22,320
partially

585
00:26:28,490 --> 00:26:25,440
sort of answer that or address at least

586
00:26:33,169 --> 00:26:28,500
one angle uh we already sort of seen

587
00:26:35,750 --> 00:26:33,179
with um the uh the the Weitzel hoax at

588
00:26:38,750 --> 00:26:35,760
least in Hastings conception of it we've

589
00:26:41,690 --> 00:26:38,760
got the afosi sort of jerking apro

590
00:26:45,230 --> 00:26:41,700
around a little bit there and

591
00:26:46,269 --> 00:26:45,240
um yeah I I as I assume so although apra

592
00:26:48,950 --> 00:26:46,279
was

593
00:26:52,669 --> 00:26:48,960
much more of a

594
00:26:55,010 --> 00:26:52,679
um sort of Home spun sort of

595
00:26:56,510 --> 00:26:55,020
a different kind of organization than

596
00:26:59,630 --> 00:26:56,520
nycap

597
00:27:02,149 --> 00:26:59,640
um didn't have the sort of high-powered

598
00:27:04,970 --> 00:27:02,159
board of directors with deep

599
00:27:07,970 --> 00:27:04,980
governmental uh connections like nycap

600
00:27:10,310 --> 00:27:07,980
did at its uh at its Inception so

601
00:27:12,649 --> 00:27:10,320
um maybe fewer inroads for the

602
00:27:13,250 --> 00:27:12,659
intelligence Community to sort of

603
00:27:19,190 --> 00:27:13,260
um

604
00:27:23,330 --> 00:27:19,200
haven't read uh Jack Brewer's book

605
00:27:26,269 --> 00:27:23,340
Wayward Sons about the cias involvement

606
00:27:30,350 --> 00:27:26,279
um or connections to the origins of

607
00:27:33,289 --> 00:27:30,360
nycap it is well worth a read all right

608
00:27:36,950 --> 00:27:33,299
thank you for the correspondence and uh

609
00:27:41,570 --> 00:27:36,960
now we are going to dive into

610
00:27:46,070 --> 00:27:41,580
Bill Moore's 1989 mufon Symposium speech

611
00:27:51,350 --> 00:27:48,529
all right so the way we're going to do

612
00:27:53,450 --> 00:27:51,360
this is I've got I've got clips from the

613
00:27:55,610 --> 00:27:53,460
actual speech it's out there on it's out

614
00:27:58,010 --> 00:27:55,620
there on YouTube I actually had it I

615
00:28:02,149 --> 00:27:58,020
think before it was on YouTube I had a a

616
00:28:05,210 --> 00:28:02,159
DVD that was basically a a digitized

617
00:28:08,450 --> 00:28:05,220
version of the of Bill Moore's speech

618
00:28:11,090 --> 00:28:08,460
and Bill english's speech so I'm gonna

619
00:28:13,789 --> 00:28:11,100
have some clips but we're not going to

620
00:28:14,510 --> 00:28:13,799
just play the recording that would be

621
00:28:16,549 --> 00:28:14,520
um

622
00:28:20,390 --> 00:28:16,559
it's on YouTube you can play the whole

623
00:28:22,070 --> 00:28:20,400
thing if you want or watch it uh so it's

624
00:28:24,169 --> 00:28:22,080
it's interesting it's an interesting

625
00:28:25,970 --> 00:28:24,179
speech and afterward we'll talk about

626
00:28:27,769 --> 00:28:25,980
sort of you know the perception later on

627
00:28:29,450 --> 00:28:27,779
of it and even at the time

628
00:28:31,310 --> 00:28:29,460
um there were people reading into things

629
00:28:33,110 --> 00:28:31,320
that might not reading things into it

630
00:28:35,990 --> 00:28:33,120
that might not have been there but this

631
00:28:39,370 --> 00:28:36,000
is how Moore began his address to the

632
00:28:41,149 --> 00:28:39,380
mufon Symposium ladies and gentlemen

633
00:28:45,169 --> 00:28:41,159
[Music]

634
00:28:51,710 --> 00:28:49,690
Associates and colleagues

635
00:28:55,549 --> 00:28:51,720
in short

636
00:28:59,100 --> 00:28:57,409
I had really wanted to come here tonight

637
00:29:00,789 --> 00:28:59,110
and kick ass

638
00:29:03,769 --> 00:29:00,799
[Music]

639
00:29:05,330 --> 00:29:03,779
but fortunately for us all wiser heads

640
00:29:07,549 --> 00:29:05,340
have prevailed

641
00:29:09,470 --> 00:29:07,559
[Music]

642
00:29:12,350 --> 00:29:09,480
interesting professional

643
00:29:14,870 --> 00:29:12,360
those people sort of loudly cheering for

644
00:29:15,830 --> 00:29:14,880
more to kick ass are probably going to

645
00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:15,840
be

646
00:29:22,130 --> 00:29:19,500
disappointed by what is to come so Bill

647
00:29:24,470 --> 00:29:22,140
talks a little bit about

648
00:29:27,350 --> 00:29:24,480
um you know thanking Walt Andrus and and

649
00:29:29,210 --> 00:29:27,360
things and he's going to basically try

650
00:29:31,789 --> 00:29:29,220
to answer some questions about himself

651
00:29:33,470 --> 00:29:31,799
and what he's been up to allow me to

652
00:29:34,690 --> 00:29:33,480
introduce myself

653
00:29:37,250 --> 00:29:34,700
[Music]

654
00:29:39,649 --> 00:29:37,260
I'm aware that you already know my name

655
00:29:41,330 --> 00:29:39,659
and I'm equally certain that many of you

656
00:29:45,289 --> 00:29:41,340
are wondering

657
00:29:48,289 --> 00:29:45,299
just who is Bill Moore

658
00:29:50,210 --> 00:29:48,299
and what's he up to

659
00:29:52,370 --> 00:29:50,220
added to that I'm sure many other

660
00:29:55,730 --> 00:29:52,380
questions

661
00:29:57,710 --> 00:29:55,740
is this man a government agent

662
00:30:01,010 --> 00:29:57,720
what about his rumored contacts within

663
00:30:01,020 --> 00:30:05,630
are the mj-12 documents real

664
00:30:10,730 --> 00:30:08,160
why they counterfeit

665
00:30:13,789 --> 00:30:10,740
[Music]

666
00:30:14,990 --> 00:30:13,799
and if they're counterfeit

667
00:30:17,210 --> 00:30:15,000
did he Forge them

668
00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:17,220
[Music]

669
00:30:23,510 --> 00:30:20,220
and isn't he really in it for the money

670
00:30:27,889 --> 00:30:25,490
the truth about Bill Moore I'm afraid is

671
00:30:30,649 --> 00:30:27,899
considerably less sensational

672
00:30:32,450 --> 00:30:30,659
he goes on to give some background on

673
00:30:34,430 --> 00:30:32,460
himself sort of reminding people that he

674
00:30:38,149 --> 00:30:34,440
he co-wrote The Philadelphia Experiment

675
00:30:39,590 --> 00:30:38,159
and the Roswell incident and that these

676
00:30:43,190 --> 00:30:39,600
books had

677
00:30:46,430 --> 00:30:43,200
um had you know been the result of

678
00:30:50,090 --> 00:30:46,440
careful research that the community had

679
00:30:54,049 --> 00:30:50,100
in many cases respected and it is the

680
00:30:56,570 --> 00:30:54,059
same with the mj-12 controversy

681
00:31:00,409 --> 00:30:56,580
um he's bringing he says that same level

682
00:31:02,810 --> 00:31:00,419
of Investigation to that project

683
00:31:05,510 --> 00:31:02,820
this unfortunately has given rise to

684
00:31:07,549 --> 00:31:05,520
considerable controversy

685
00:31:09,470 --> 00:31:07,559
for the number of falsehoods having been

686
00:31:12,490 --> 00:31:09,480
spread by others in the UFO Community

687
00:31:14,690 --> 00:31:12,500
who saw fit to jump to Hasty conclusions

688
00:31:17,930 --> 00:31:14,700
inappropriately formed

689
00:31:19,850 --> 00:31:17,940
without benefit of all the facts

690
00:31:22,789 --> 00:31:19,860
we encountered some of these rumors in

691
00:31:26,149 --> 00:31:22,799
Robert hastings's article from the June

692
00:31:29,570 --> 00:31:26,159
issue of the mufon UFO Journal but the

693
00:31:32,450 --> 00:31:29,580
first one that Moore wants to address is

694
00:31:34,510 --> 00:31:32,460
that he is Rich or that he's funded by

695
00:31:37,610 --> 00:31:34,520
the government or that he's on the take

696
00:31:40,010 --> 00:31:37,620
somehow the real Bill Moore is as poor

697
00:31:42,889 --> 00:31:40,020
as a church mouse

698
00:31:45,169 --> 00:31:42,899
I came away from a divorce in 1983 with

699
00:31:46,909 --> 00:31:45,179
virtually nothing

700
00:31:48,769 --> 00:31:46,919
I went through bankruptcy shortly

701
00:31:51,769 --> 00:31:48,779
thereafter

702
00:31:54,230 --> 00:31:51,779
I began to rebuild my life

703
00:31:56,389 --> 00:31:54,240
the money I made from writing royalties

704
00:31:58,970 --> 00:31:56,399
and the sale of mostly UFO oriented

705
00:32:00,830 --> 00:31:58,980
books and Publications is all plowed

706
00:32:02,450 --> 00:32:00,840
back into living expenses and continuing

707
00:32:04,789 --> 00:32:02,460
research

708
00:32:07,669 --> 00:32:04,799
it's a constant scrape to get by but I

709
00:32:09,470 --> 00:32:07,679
believe in what I'm doing

710
00:32:12,230 --> 00:32:09,480
and in order to preserve the freedom

711
00:32:14,750 --> 00:32:12,240
necessary to continue

712
00:32:17,510 --> 00:32:14,760
I've had to make sacrifices

713
00:32:19,310 --> 00:32:17,520
I'm definitely not in this business for

714
00:32:22,130 --> 00:32:19,320
the money

715
00:32:28,430 --> 00:32:22,140
I live in a rented house

716
00:32:33,769 --> 00:32:30,590
I have no savings accounts

717
00:32:35,450 --> 00:32:33,779
no stops no bonds

718
00:32:37,010 --> 00:32:35,460
and I recently dropped my health

719
00:32:38,510 --> 00:32:37,020
insurance because I couldn't afford it

720
00:32:41,210 --> 00:32:38,520
any longer

721
00:32:44,090 --> 00:32:41,220
I'm not looking for a handout

722
00:32:47,149 --> 00:32:44,100
nor do I expect any sympathy

723
00:32:48,769 --> 00:32:47,159
I simply tell you this because I want it

724
00:32:50,690 --> 00:32:48,779
on the record

725
00:32:52,669 --> 00:32:50,700
you've got any questions about Bill

726
00:32:55,909 --> 00:32:52,679
Moore's lifestyle you are welcome to go

727
00:32:57,590 --> 00:32:55,919
see him and uh check out I don't know

728
00:32:59,389 --> 00:32:57,600
the state of abject poverty he was

729
00:33:03,350 --> 00:32:59,399
living in or at least the state of

730
00:33:04,310 --> 00:33:03,360
modest accommodation he had but what

731
00:33:07,610 --> 00:33:04,320
about

732
00:33:11,630 --> 00:33:07,620
the other rumors that the mj-12 thing is

733
00:33:13,430 --> 00:33:11,640
a massive Bill Moore fabrication those

734
00:33:14,690 --> 00:33:13,440
who allege that I have counterfeited

735
00:33:18,049 --> 00:33:14,700
documents

736
00:33:20,029 --> 00:33:18,059
and concocted a hoax on the mj-12 matter

737
00:33:22,310 --> 00:33:20,039
had better take the same facts into

738
00:33:24,110 --> 00:33:22,320
account

739
00:33:27,169 --> 00:33:24,120
rest assured

740
00:33:30,830 --> 00:33:27,179
I know myself well enough

741
00:33:32,330 --> 00:33:30,840
if I was trying to perpetrate a hoax

742
00:33:35,090 --> 00:33:32,340
I would have played it for all the cash

743
00:33:38,149 --> 00:33:35,100
I could get a long time ago

744
00:33:41,690 --> 00:33:38,159
and taking the Money and Run

745
00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:41,700
as some are doing even now in the UFO

746
00:33:43,909 --> 00:33:42,550
community

747
00:33:45,590 --> 00:33:43,919
[Music]

748
00:33:47,450 --> 00:33:45,600
and as for for my being on the

749
00:33:50,810 --> 00:33:47,460
government's payroll

750
00:33:53,149 --> 00:33:50,820
I can only say that I wish I was

751
00:33:56,330 --> 00:33:53,159
the government pays well

752
00:34:00,470 --> 00:33:56,340
and it provides excellent benefits

753
00:34:02,330 --> 00:34:00,480
wow that could not have set well with a

754
00:34:04,669 --> 00:34:02,340
lot of people in the audience

755
00:34:06,950 --> 00:34:04,679
um there was from accounts of people who

756
00:34:10,190 --> 00:34:06,960
were there such as Greg Bishop who was

757
00:34:12,710 --> 00:34:10,200
uh acquainted with more at the time and

758
00:34:14,450 --> 00:34:12,720
afterwards of course according to people

759
00:34:17,510 --> 00:34:14,460
like Greg bishop and others who were

760
00:34:19,490 --> 00:34:17,520
there there was a lot of jeering a lot

761
00:34:21,349 --> 00:34:19,500
of cat calling a lot of complaining

762
00:34:23,930 --> 00:34:21,359
during various parts of Moore's speech

763
00:34:25,970 --> 00:34:23,940
and one problem with this recording is

764
00:34:28,250 --> 00:34:25,980
that it doesn't pick that up very

765
00:34:29,990 --> 00:34:28,260
clearly as you'll hear there are some

766
00:34:33,109 --> 00:34:30,000
places where you can clearly tell some

767
00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:33,119
people in the audience are voicing some

768
00:34:39,169 --> 00:34:35,520
sort of feeling but it's kind of

769
00:34:41,570 --> 00:34:39,179
indistinct trying to hear it next more

770
00:34:43,609 --> 00:34:41,580
moves into the question of why anybody

771
00:34:45,829 --> 00:34:43,619
should believe him about anything that

772
00:34:48,470 --> 00:34:45,839
he's saying and he says quote the fact

773
00:34:50,690 --> 00:34:48,480
is that I have information that will add

774
00:34:53,329 --> 00:34:50,700
to your knowledge of the UFO phenomenon

775
00:34:56,030 --> 00:34:53,339
I'll report it to you in as reliable a

776
00:34:59,390 --> 00:34:56,040
fashion as I can and in as objective a

777
00:35:01,010 --> 00:34:59,400
man her as possible people who know him

778
00:35:04,430 --> 00:35:01,020
and like them will be comforted by that

779
00:35:06,589 --> 00:35:04,440
others will continue to cast aspersions

780
00:35:12,050 --> 00:35:06,599
in his words cast aspersions and throw

781
00:35:15,069 --> 00:35:12,060
rocks in his Direction The mj-12 Saga he

782
00:35:18,470 --> 00:35:15,079
explains is is has been

783
00:35:22,430 --> 00:35:18,480
typical of American ufology's three-ring

784
00:35:24,109 --> 00:35:22,440
circus and ufology is in a crisis and

785
00:35:27,589 --> 00:35:24,119
there have been throughout human history

786
00:35:32,390 --> 00:35:27,599
various Quests for for truth and

787
00:35:35,569 --> 00:35:32,400
knowledge and the the UFO crowd is not

788
00:35:38,650 --> 00:35:35,579
doing it very effectively and he's been

789
00:35:41,150 --> 00:35:38,660
witnessing this for a very long time

790
00:35:43,010 --> 00:35:41,160
I've been accumulating information on

791
00:35:43,880 --> 00:35:43,020
the UFO phenomenon for more than 25

792
00:35:45,890 --> 00:35:43,890
years

793
00:35:47,990 --> 00:35:45,900
[Music]

794
00:35:52,490 --> 00:35:48,000
during that time

795
00:35:54,170 --> 00:35:52,500
I have watched ufology trying to grow up

796
00:35:56,270 --> 00:35:54,180
to achieve respectability with the

797
00:35:58,130 --> 00:35:56,280
public the news

798
00:36:00,589 --> 00:35:58,140
news Unity

799
00:36:02,990 --> 00:36:00,599
in that process I am sorry to say it's

800
00:36:05,569 --> 00:36:03,000
been my observation that we have been

801
00:36:07,430 --> 00:36:05,579
Our Own Worst Enemy

802
00:36:09,290 --> 00:36:07,440
no skeptic

803
00:36:11,569 --> 00:36:09,300
nobody bunker

804
00:36:15,349 --> 00:36:11,579
could possibly do that we have done to

805
00:36:17,450 --> 00:36:15,359
ourselves not once but time and time

806
00:36:20,450 --> 00:36:17,460
again

807
00:36:22,190 --> 00:36:20,460
we say we want respectability

808
00:36:23,990 --> 00:36:22,200
yet we have made little effort to

809
00:36:26,990 --> 00:36:24,000
construct the foundations necessary to

810
00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:29,510
we have no uniform standards

811
00:36:36,770 --> 00:36:33,240
no professional ethics no peers no

812
00:36:38,930 --> 00:36:36,780
qualifications no uniform goals and few

813
00:36:42,170 --> 00:36:38,940
credible spokespersons

814
00:36:44,410 --> 00:36:42,180
nobody speaks for ufology

815
00:36:47,750 --> 00:36:44,420
or rather perhaps more correctly

816
00:36:49,730 --> 00:36:47,760
everybody speaks for youthology all at

817
00:36:51,530 --> 00:36:49,740
the same time and each with a different

818
00:36:54,230 --> 00:36:51,540
voice

819
00:36:56,270 --> 00:36:54,240
anybody can be a ufologist

820
00:36:59,030 --> 00:36:56,280
all they need to do is tack the title of

821
00:37:01,609 --> 00:36:59,040
the end of their name and publish

822
00:37:03,230 --> 00:37:01,619
yes even self-publish

823
00:37:05,329 --> 00:37:03,240
a book

824
00:37:07,670 --> 00:37:05,339
start a newsletter

825
00:37:11,690 --> 00:37:07,680
or get themselves on television

826
00:37:14,450 --> 00:37:11,700
or start a podcast or go on YouTube not

827
00:37:18,890 --> 00:37:14,460
much has changed and actually

828
00:37:21,589 --> 00:37:18,900
um one of the things that strikes me as

829
00:37:23,089 --> 00:37:21,599
I listen to the speech or I think I read

830
00:37:26,630 --> 00:37:23,099
it first it was published in the

831
00:37:29,329 --> 00:37:26,640
November and December issues of 1989

832
00:37:31,910 --> 00:37:29,339
issues of the mufon UFO journal and

833
00:37:33,589 --> 00:37:31,920
copies of this are out there on the

834
00:37:37,130 --> 00:37:33,599
internet in various places I think I

835
00:37:39,050 --> 00:37:37,140
found mine on scribed one of the things

836
00:37:41,450 --> 00:37:39,060
that struck me when I first encountered

837
00:37:44,390 --> 00:37:41,460
this speech is that

838
00:37:46,010 --> 00:37:44,400
you know I I had always read The

839
00:37:47,930 --> 00:37:46,020
Sensational parts that you're waiting

840
00:37:49,849 --> 00:37:47,940
for on this show right now waiting for

841
00:37:51,770 --> 00:37:49,859
almost 40 minutes now don't worry we

842
00:37:53,810 --> 00:37:51,780
will get to them but I've always heard

843
00:37:55,550 --> 00:37:53,820
about those those parts that have to do

844
00:37:58,130 --> 00:37:55,560
with the intelligence community and

845
00:38:01,609 --> 00:37:58,140
disinformation and things like that and

846
00:38:05,030 --> 00:38:01,619
I that's all anybody really remembers

847
00:38:08,390 --> 00:38:05,040
about it but this is at at the outset a

848
00:38:12,410 --> 00:38:08,400
a sort of blistering denunciation of

849
00:38:14,329 --> 00:38:12,420
ufology which you know is kind of passe

850
00:38:16,730 --> 00:38:14,339
now you go on on

851
00:38:18,470 --> 00:38:16,740
the internet and social media and yes

852
00:38:21,710 --> 00:38:18,480
everybody has been saying these kinds of

853
00:38:25,010 --> 00:38:21,720
things about ufology for a long time but

854
00:38:27,530 --> 00:38:25,020
more was a name and Moore was saying

855
00:38:30,349 --> 00:38:27,540
this to a room full of people who had

856
00:38:32,990 --> 00:38:30,359
done exactly what he said tact ufologist

857
00:38:36,109 --> 00:38:33,000
on the end of their name and published a

858
00:38:38,210 --> 00:38:36,119
book and one could argue that um that

859
00:38:41,329 --> 00:38:38,220
the same charge could be leveled at more

860
00:38:43,849 --> 00:38:41,339
in in many ways Moore speaks a little

861
00:38:47,150 --> 00:38:43,859
while longer about the trials and

862
00:38:49,849 --> 00:38:47,160
travails of ufology in America and it's

863
00:38:53,630 --> 00:38:49,859
it's downfalls and its shortcomings and

864
00:38:56,990 --> 00:38:53,640
then he begins to get into the heart of

865
00:38:58,970 --> 00:38:57,000
what he is talking about and he tells us

866
00:39:01,370 --> 00:38:58,980
where it all begins

867
00:39:05,150 --> 00:39:01,380
it All Began more than 10 years ago with

868
00:39:09,290 --> 00:39:07,670
let me preface my remarks by offering

869
00:39:11,030 --> 00:39:09,300
the sincere and candid statement that

870
00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:11,040
what I'm going to say

871
00:39:14,750 --> 00:39:12,960
is to the best of my knowledge entirely

872
00:39:16,310 --> 00:39:14,760
true

873
00:39:18,230 --> 00:39:16,320
it is offered without malice or

874
00:39:20,870 --> 00:39:18,240
Prejudice in any way

875
00:39:23,510 --> 00:39:20,880
in his under no circumstances intended

876
00:39:26,390 --> 00:39:23,520
to be libelous or defamatory

877
00:39:28,250 --> 00:39:26,400
I genuinely like Mr benowitz

878
00:39:29,810 --> 00:39:28,260
continue to regard him as a friend and

879
00:39:32,270 --> 00:39:29,820
have a great deal of Sympathy for the

880
00:39:34,490 --> 00:39:32,280
difficulties he's been through

881
00:39:35,810 --> 00:39:34,500
it is not my intention to upset him with

882
00:39:37,970 --> 00:39:35,820
these Revelations

883
00:39:39,650 --> 00:39:37,980
but rather to add a few facts to a

884
00:39:40,910 --> 00:39:39,660
record that's been out of balance for a

885
00:39:43,490 --> 00:39:40,920
lot of years

886
00:39:45,410 --> 00:39:43,500
so The Saga of Paul benowitz we have

887
00:39:46,849 --> 00:39:45,420
talked about this occasionally on the

888
00:39:49,430 --> 00:39:46,859
show we've never done a deep dive into

889
00:39:50,810 --> 00:39:49,440
benowitz for a number of reasons uh the

890
00:39:54,950 --> 00:39:50,820
biggest reason of which is that there

891
00:39:56,810 --> 00:39:54,960
are at least three really good books for

892
00:39:59,810 --> 00:39:56,820
really good there's there's several

893
00:40:02,930 --> 00:39:59,820
really good books that deal with this

894
00:40:05,750 --> 00:40:02,940
subject in depth and

895
00:40:08,329 --> 00:40:05,760
um although I don't live up to this my

896
00:40:09,970 --> 00:40:08,339
goal is to not cover things that have

897
00:40:13,550 --> 00:40:09,980
been covered

898
00:40:15,410 --> 00:40:13,560
exhaustively elsewhere but yet I'm doing

899
00:40:17,990 --> 00:40:15,420
the bill Moore move-on speech Yes I

900
00:40:21,290 --> 00:40:18,000
don't live up to my own expectations but

901
00:40:25,390 --> 00:40:21,300
I encourage you to read um Greg Bishop's

902
00:40:28,010 --> 00:40:25,400
project beta and uh Chris lambright's

903
00:40:31,970 --> 00:40:28,020
ex-descending and

904
00:40:34,730 --> 00:40:31,980
um Mirage Men by Mark Pilkington and

905
00:40:37,790 --> 00:40:34,740
Adam go rightly's saucers Spooks and

906
00:40:40,730 --> 00:40:37,800
Kooks between those books amongst those

907
00:40:44,510 --> 00:40:40,740
books you will get a a thorough

908
00:40:46,730 --> 00:40:44,520
education in what was going on with uh

909
00:40:49,130 --> 00:40:46,740
with Paul benevitz benowitz which we

910
00:40:53,750 --> 00:40:49,140
will sort of Tracy here as we move

911
00:40:56,270 --> 00:40:53,760
through what more said in 1989 about the

912
00:41:00,250 --> 00:40:56,280
uh the benowitz case as well more

913
00:41:04,670 --> 00:41:00,260
recounts how he moved to Arizona in 1979

914
00:41:07,430 --> 00:41:04,680
to be closer to the home of coral and

915
00:41:10,490 --> 00:41:07,440
Jim Lorenzen and the the headquarters of

916
00:41:12,109 --> 00:41:10,500
apro and he eventually became a a member

917
00:41:14,390 --> 00:41:12,119
of the board of directors and it was

918
00:41:17,630 --> 00:41:14,400
through this that he became acquainted

919
00:41:20,270 --> 00:41:17,640
with Paul benowitz and Paul benowitz was

920
00:41:21,589 --> 00:41:20,280
working with Dr Leo sprinkle the

921
00:41:23,630 --> 00:41:21,599
abduction

922
00:41:26,030 --> 00:41:23,640
um I was gonna say experiencer the

923
00:41:28,490 --> 00:41:26,040
abduction expert and they were working

924
00:41:31,490 --> 00:41:28,500
with a young woman who had been abducted

925
00:41:32,810 --> 00:41:31,500
and who had been taken into a place

926
00:41:33,970 --> 00:41:32,820
where

927
00:41:37,130 --> 00:41:33,980
um they were

928
00:41:39,349 --> 00:41:37,140
processing body parts from cattle

929
00:41:40,670 --> 00:41:39,359
mutilations and during these hypnosis

930
00:41:42,829 --> 00:41:40,680
sessions

931
00:41:46,609 --> 00:41:42,839
um they uh

932
00:41:49,490 --> 00:41:46,619
revealed or benowitz believed that the

933
00:41:51,470 --> 00:41:49,500
woman had been implanted with a

934
00:41:55,609 --> 00:41:51,480
communication device with an she had an

935
00:41:58,430 --> 00:41:55,619
alien implant in her uh in her head so

936
00:42:00,430 --> 00:41:58,440
benowitz starts going down this rabbit

937
00:42:03,230 --> 00:42:00,440
hole and he's seeing

938
00:42:05,390 --> 00:42:03,240
UFOs near Kirtland Air Force Base and

939
00:42:07,970 --> 00:42:05,400
the Manzano weapons testing range in

940
00:42:11,150 --> 00:42:07,980
Albuquerque he is picking up radio

941
00:42:14,089 --> 00:42:11,160
signals from the area which he believes

942
00:42:15,829 --> 00:42:14,099
are signals from Alien craft he's

943
00:42:18,829 --> 00:42:15,839
reported this to the Air Force the Air

944
00:42:22,150 --> 00:42:18,839
Force is talking to him and

945
00:42:24,829 --> 00:42:22,160
more becomes acquainted with benowitz

946
00:42:26,470 --> 00:42:24,839
through this process it takes a while

947
00:42:28,970 --> 00:42:26,480
until he meets him he's mostly

948
00:42:31,130 --> 00:42:28,980
corresponding and reading reports and

949
00:42:32,510 --> 00:42:31,140
things like that Moore explains that the

950
00:42:35,089 --> 00:42:32,520
lorenzen's

951
00:42:36,829 --> 00:42:35,099
um thought that benowitz was you know

952
00:42:38,990 --> 00:42:36,839
not being objective he'd already decided

953
00:42:41,450 --> 00:42:39,000
he knew what the aliens were up to and

954
00:42:46,870 --> 00:42:41,460
that there was a plan but more was

955
00:42:51,950 --> 00:42:46,880
intrigued by all of this and in 1980

956
00:42:55,430 --> 00:42:51,960
Moore has an experience that changes the

957
00:42:58,309 --> 00:42:55,440
whole course of this investigation in

958
00:43:00,349 --> 00:42:58,319
early September 1980

959
00:43:02,089 --> 00:43:00,359
I was approached by a well-placed

960
00:43:03,650 --> 00:43:02,099
individual within the intelligence

961
00:43:05,150 --> 00:43:03,660
Community who claimed to be directly

962
00:43:09,230 --> 00:43:05,160
connected to a high-level government

963
00:43:12,170 --> 00:43:09,240
project dealing with UFOs

964
00:43:14,390 --> 00:43:12,180
this individual who subsequently came to

965
00:43:16,309 --> 00:43:14,400
be known as the falcon

966
00:43:17,809 --> 00:43:16,319
told me that he spoke for a small group

967
00:43:19,069 --> 00:43:17,819
of similar individuals who were

968
00:43:21,230 --> 00:43:19,079
uncomfortable with the government's

969
00:43:23,089 --> 00:43:21,240
continuing cover-up of the truth

970
00:43:24,770 --> 00:43:23,099
and indicated that he and his group

971
00:43:27,230 --> 00:43:24,780
would like to help me with my research

972
00:43:29,089 --> 00:43:27,240
into the subject in the hope that I

973
00:43:30,829 --> 00:43:29,099
might be able to help them find a way to

974
00:43:32,630 --> 00:43:30,839
change the prevailing policy and get the

975
00:43:34,609 --> 00:43:32,640
facts out without breaking any laws in

976
00:43:37,970 --> 00:43:34,619
the process

977
00:43:43,190 --> 00:43:37,980
I knew I was being recruited

978
00:43:47,270 --> 00:43:45,470
in case I was told that if

979
00:43:50,270 --> 00:43:47,280
cooperating with their group I would

980
00:43:52,370 --> 00:43:50,280
further be contacted by a liaison man

981
00:43:53,990 --> 00:43:52,380
and that future meetings between me and

982
00:43:56,089 --> 00:43:54,000
the Falcon would be arranged by this

983
00:44:00,290 --> 00:43:56,099
person

984
00:44:03,890 --> 00:44:00,300
contact with me

985
00:44:05,690 --> 00:44:03,900
was afosi agent Richard Doty

986
00:44:08,089 --> 00:44:05,700
a man who has since become quite

987
00:44:10,010 --> 00:44:08,099
controversial in his own right

988
00:44:12,170 --> 00:44:10,020
and who many people have mistakenly

989
00:44:15,349 --> 00:44:12,180
assumed is the Falcon himself

990
00:44:18,109 --> 00:44:15,359
so now now we're getting into it

991
00:44:22,190 --> 00:44:18,119
somebody approaches

992
00:44:25,010 --> 00:44:22,200
more and says we'd like you to

993
00:44:27,230 --> 00:44:25,020
work with us where a small cabal of

994
00:44:29,809 --> 00:44:27,240
people who want the truth to get out

995
00:44:31,910 --> 00:44:29,819
Moore says he knows he was being

996
00:44:33,770 --> 00:44:31,920
recruited

997
00:44:36,290 --> 00:44:33,780
by the falcon

998
00:44:38,990 --> 00:44:36,300
now this is where one of the places

999
00:44:41,990 --> 00:44:39,000
where people start to think okay this is

1000
00:44:43,730 --> 00:44:42,000
Shady right why would somebody knowingly

1001
00:44:46,670 --> 00:44:43,740
work with the people who are involved

1002
00:44:49,250 --> 00:44:46,680
with the cover-up well we'll get into to

1003
00:44:50,690 --> 00:44:49,260
some of that as we go but the Falcon the

1004
00:44:53,150 --> 00:44:50,700
Falcon many people assumed it was

1005
00:44:55,550 --> 00:44:53,160
Richard Doty it uh it was not according

1006
00:44:58,609 --> 00:44:55,560
to more uh Greg Bishop who wrote project

1007
00:45:03,050 --> 00:44:58,619
beta um revealed that based on what

1008
00:45:05,270 --> 00:45:03,060
Moore told him at various times that the

1009
00:45:08,690 --> 00:45:05,280
Falcon was actually

1010
00:45:11,930 --> 00:45:08,700
um CIA veteran Harry rozitski who died

1011
00:45:14,930 --> 00:45:11,940
in 2002. other people uh dispute that

1012
00:45:16,490 --> 00:45:14,940
but I think Greg had more sort of

1013
00:45:18,650 --> 00:45:16,500
conversations and connections about this

1014
00:45:22,550 --> 00:45:18,660
topic with uh with more than probably

1015
00:45:26,390 --> 00:45:22,560
anybody else so hey I'll uh I'll take uh

1016
00:45:28,730 --> 00:45:26,400
I'll take Greg's analysis on that so how

1017
00:45:32,450 --> 00:45:28,740
did all of this work what was more

1018
00:45:34,490 --> 00:45:32,460
expected to do and why was he doing it

1019
00:45:36,589 --> 00:45:34,500
in any case

1020
00:45:39,050 --> 00:45:36,599
it was Falcon who sought me out in

1021
00:45:40,910 --> 00:45:39,060
September of 1980.

1022
00:45:43,370 --> 00:45:40,920
and it was Richard Doty

1023
00:45:44,089 --> 00:45:43,380
then with afosi at Kirtland Air Force

1024
00:45:46,069 --> 00:45:44,099
Base

1025
00:45:48,190 --> 00:45:46,079
who soon came into play as the middleman

1026
00:45:50,450 --> 00:45:48,200
in that process

1027
00:45:52,730 --> 00:45:50,460
shortly thereafter

1028
00:45:55,609 --> 00:45:52,740
it became apparent to me that my

1029
00:45:57,109 --> 00:45:55,619
supplying information to the government

1030
00:46:00,230 --> 00:45:57,119
through Doty

1031
00:46:03,530 --> 00:46:00,240
on the activities of Paul benowitz

1032
00:46:06,349 --> 00:46:03,540
apple and to a lesser extent several

1033
00:46:08,870 --> 00:46:06,359
other individuals was to be a part of

1034
00:46:11,030 --> 00:46:08,880
this equation

1035
00:46:13,430 --> 00:46:11,040
I also discovered that whatever it was

1036
00:46:15,230 --> 00:46:13,440
that benowitz was involved with

1037
00:46:17,690 --> 00:46:15,240
he was the subject of considerable

1038
00:46:20,150 --> 00:46:17,700
interest on the part of not one but

1039
00:46:21,890 --> 00:46:20,160
several government agencies

1040
00:46:23,569 --> 00:46:21,900
and that they were actively trying to

1041
00:46:26,030 --> 00:46:23,579
defuse him by pumping as much

1042
00:46:29,329 --> 00:46:26,040
disinformation through him

1043
00:46:31,370 --> 00:46:29,339
as he could possibly absorb

1044
00:46:33,109 --> 00:46:31,380
being a very small part of that process

1045
00:46:34,910 --> 00:46:33,119
gave me I thought something of an

1046
00:46:36,950 --> 00:46:34,920
advantage

1047
00:46:38,630 --> 00:46:36,960
it became my intention to play that

1048
00:46:40,370 --> 00:46:38,640
Advantage for all the information I

1049
00:46:45,050 --> 00:46:40,380
could get out of it

1050
00:46:47,750 --> 00:46:45,060
so more is reporting to Richard Doty who

1051
00:46:50,030 --> 00:46:47,760
is reporting to other Air Force and

1052
00:46:52,609 --> 00:46:50,040
intelligence people about what benewitz

1053
00:46:56,089 --> 00:46:52,619
is doing in his investigation into the

1054
00:46:58,490 --> 00:46:56,099
weird lights radio signals all these

1055
00:47:01,609 --> 00:46:58,500
things happening in and around Kirtland

1056
00:47:04,790 --> 00:47:01,619
Air Force Base meanwhile benowitz is

1057
00:47:07,430 --> 00:47:04,800
being fed disinformation by the air

1058
00:47:12,410 --> 00:47:07,440
force that will lead him away from

1059
00:47:16,730 --> 00:47:12,420
whatever it is he thinks is UFOs but is

1060
00:47:19,970 --> 00:47:16,740
probably not UFOs

1061
00:47:22,849 --> 00:47:19,980
benowitz is being disinformed

1062
00:47:26,270 --> 00:47:22,859
more is witnessing this disinformation

1063
00:47:30,170 --> 00:47:26,280
and he is witnessing what it is doing to

1064
00:47:33,530 --> 00:47:30,180
benowitz and how it is contributing to

1065
00:47:35,350 --> 00:47:33,540
benowitz's theories and ideas about what

1066
00:47:42,050 --> 00:47:35,360
is really going on

1067
00:47:45,650 --> 00:47:44,089
most of which gave every appearance of

1068
00:47:47,990 --> 00:47:45,660
having been influenced by a heavy

1069
00:47:50,030 --> 00:47:48,000
blanket of disinformation

1070
00:47:52,190 --> 00:47:50,040
mixed with a small but significant

1071
00:47:54,109 --> 00:47:52,200
amount of Truth

1072
00:47:56,270 --> 00:47:54,119
the problem was always one of keeping a

1073
00:47:58,970 --> 00:47:56,280
level head and trying to carefully sort

1074
00:48:00,470 --> 00:47:58,980
the from the candy

1075
00:48:02,210 --> 00:48:00,480
something which Paul didn't seem to be

1076
00:48:04,730 --> 00:48:02,220
very good at

1077
00:48:06,829 --> 00:48:04,740
but then Paul was by that time very

1078
00:48:08,450 --> 00:48:06,839
emotionally involved with the affair and

1079
00:48:10,130 --> 00:48:08,460
rather skeptical of advice from any

1080
00:48:12,770 --> 00:48:10,140
quarter unless it supported what he had

1081
00:48:14,750 --> 00:48:12,780
already decided was the truth

1082
00:48:16,849 --> 00:48:14,760
from my vantage point

1083
00:48:18,470 --> 00:48:16,859
being detached from the mainstream but

1084
00:48:19,849 --> 00:48:18,480
still close enough to appreciate what

1085
00:48:22,010 --> 00:48:19,859
was happening

1086
00:48:25,750 --> 00:48:22,020
it was somewhat easier to assess the

1087
00:48:31,250 --> 00:48:25,760
process that sounds very clinical and

1088
00:48:33,470 --> 00:48:31,260
detached and one thing that people at

1089
00:48:36,770 --> 00:48:33,480
the time when they heard more talking

1090
00:48:37,930 --> 00:48:36,780
about this in 1989 and

1091
00:48:40,309 --> 00:48:37,940
ever

1092
00:48:41,630 --> 00:48:40,319
afterwards one question people had one

1093
00:48:44,569 --> 00:48:41,640
thing people were concerned about one

1094
00:48:45,829 --> 00:48:44,579
thing people said or accused more of was

1095
00:48:48,650 --> 00:48:45,839
being

1096
00:48:49,930 --> 00:48:48,660
part of this disinformation

1097
00:48:53,390 --> 00:48:49,940
process

1098
00:48:55,010 --> 00:48:53,400
Moore denied that my role in the affair

1099
00:48:57,170 --> 00:48:55,020
was largely that of a freelancer

1100
00:48:59,690 --> 00:48:57,180
providing information on Paul's then

1101
00:49:01,910 --> 00:48:59,700
current thinking and activities

1102
00:49:03,109 --> 00:49:01,920
I had nothing whatsoever to do with the

1103
00:49:04,790 --> 00:49:03,119
counterintelligence and the

1104
00:49:06,890 --> 00:49:04,800
disinformation

1105
00:49:08,750 --> 00:49:06,900
although I either knew

1106
00:49:10,370 --> 00:49:08,760
or was aware of a number of people

1107
00:49:11,750 --> 00:49:10,380
directly involved with that end of

1108
00:49:14,569 --> 00:49:11,760
things

1109
00:49:16,370 --> 00:49:14,579
Richard Doty was one of these people

1110
00:49:17,809 --> 00:49:16,380
although I came to know Doty well enough

1111
00:49:20,089 --> 00:49:17,819
to gain the impression that he was

1112
00:49:22,069 --> 00:49:20,099
Faithfully carrying out orders which he

1113
00:49:24,530 --> 00:49:22,079
personally found distasteful

1114
00:49:27,050 --> 00:49:24,540
no we found it distasteful that that

1115
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:27,060
makes it all better so

1116
00:49:35,710 --> 00:49:31,800
more meets benowitz in 1981 and was in

1117
00:49:38,990 --> 00:49:35,720
contact with him until about uh mid

1118
00:49:41,150 --> 00:49:39,000
1985. and he says that that when he met

1119
00:49:44,510 --> 00:49:41,160
Paul benowitz in 1981 benowitz was

1120
00:49:47,690 --> 00:49:44,520
gathering information from a variety of

1121
00:49:50,390 --> 00:49:47,700
sources and um and and was really

1122
00:49:53,150 --> 00:49:50,400
putting together a lot of information

1123
00:49:56,690 --> 00:49:53,160
from all over the place and coming to

1124
00:50:00,170 --> 00:49:56,700
some pretty outlandish conclusions

1125
00:50:02,150 --> 00:50:00,180
has for benefits by 1981 he was

1126
00:50:03,530 --> 00:50:02,160
gathering data from a variety of sources

1127
00:50:05,390 --> 00:50:03,540
and amalgamating it with information

1128
00:50:07,370 --> 00:50:05,400
being fed to him by a number of

1129
00:50:09,050 --> 00:50:07,380
government people in whom for some

1130
00:50:10,849 --> 00:50:09,060
reason he seemed to have an implicit and

1131
00:50:13,250 --> 00:50:10,859
Abiding Faith

1132
00:50:15,589 --> 00:50:13,260
the story that emerged from this melange

1133
00:50:17,990 --> 00:50:15,599
of fact fiction fantasy hearsay hard

1134
00:50:20,210 --> 00:50:18,000
data and government disinformation was

1135
00:50:23,210 --> 00:50:20,220
absolutely incredible

1136
00:50:25,730 --> 00:50:23,220
yet somehow Paul believed in it

1137
00:50:27,410 --> 00:50:25,740
and set out on a one-man crusade to tell

1138
00:50:29,569 --> 00:50:27,420
the world that malevolent aliens from

1139
00:50:32,150 --> 00:50:29,579
space were in lead with our government

1140
00:50:35,210 --> 00:50:32,160
to take over the planet

1141
00:50:36,710 --> 00:50:35,220
what had begun in 1979 is an effort to

1142
00:50:39,410 --> 00:50:36,720
learn whether the behavior of a woman

1143
00:50:41,510 --> 00:50:39,420
who claimed she had been abducted by UFO

1144
00:50:44,990 --> 00:50:41,520
aliens and was being influenced by some

1145
00:50:47,569 --> 00:50:45,000
sort of radio remote control had in the

1146
00:50:49,910 --> 00:50:47,579
space of less than three years

1147
00:50:52,490 --> 00:50:49,920
blossomed into a tale which rivaled the

1148
00:50:54,470 --> 00:50:52,500
wildest science fiction scenario anyone

1149
00:50:58,849 --> 00:50:54,480
could possibly imagine

1150
00:51:01,790 --> 00:50:58,859
does that story sound familiar to anyone

1151
00:51:04,790 --> 00:51:01,800
um it's amazing how this this you know

1152
00:51:06,829 --> 00:51:04,800
this cover-up story this John lear-esque

1153
00:51:08,329 --> 00:51:06,839
Dark Side hypothesis the John Lear story

1154
00:51:11,150 --> 00:51:08,339
basically you know it's crib from

1155
00:51:13,370 --> 00:51:11,160
benowitz Cooper's stuff Bill english's

1156
00:51:18,049 --> 00:51:13,380
stuff it all ties together and it all

1157
00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,059
goes back to this this sort of root

1158
00:51:23,210 --> 00:51:20,640
Source One of this is one of those sort

1159
00:51:25,970 --> 00:51:23,220
of core root sources of these things and

1160
00:51:28,970 --> 00:51:25,980
and the the provenance of these stories

1161
00:51:30,950 --> 00:51:28,980
is incredibly uh complex and there's all

1162
00:51:34,010 --> 00:51:30,960
sorts of strange characters that inhabit

1163
00:51:37,670 --> 00:51:34,020
this scene but one of the points Moore

1164
00:51:40,130 --> 00:51:37,680
is making in this speech is that you

1165
00:51:42,950 --> 00:51:40,140
know the the stuff that's being talked

1166
00:51:45,770 --> 00:51:42,960
about very loudly down the street or

1167
00:51:47,750 --> 00:51:45,780
down the hall depending on who remembers

1168
00:51:50,390 --> 00:51:47,760
what where Lear and Cooper and English

1169
00:51:54,589 --> 00:51:50,400
were speaking it all goes back to this

1170
00:51:57,770 --> 00:51:54,599
situation with which he was involved

1171
00:51:59,870 --> 00:51:57,780
in any case by mid-1982

1172
00:52:01,790 --> 00:51:59,880
Paul's story contained virtually all of

1173
00:52:04,069 --> 00:52:01,800
the elements found in the current crop

1174
00:52:06,049 --> 00:52:04,079
of rumors being circulated around the

1175
00:52:08,510 --> 00:52:06,059
UFO community

1176
00:52:11,630 --> 00:52:08,520
there were two groups of aliens one

1177
00:52:13,609 --> 00:52:11,640
malevolent one more friendly

1178
00:52:16,370 --> 00:52:13,619
the malevolent ones which Paul referred

1179
00:52:18,470 --> 00:52:16,380
to as the Grays were really in control

1180
00:52:20,450 --> 00:52:18,480
and they were the Run ones responsible

1181
00:52:23,210 --> 00:52:20,460
for the cattle mutilations

1182
00:52:25,970 --> 00:52:23,220
for human abductions and the implanting

1183
00:52:27,829 --> 00:52:25,980
of sinister control devices in humans

1184
00:52:29,390 --> 00:52:27,839
for having first made and then broken

1185
00:52:30,530 --> 00:52:29,400
the secret treaty with the U.S

1186
00:52:32,270 --> 00:52:30,540
government

1187
00:52:34,670 --> 00:52:32,280
for maintaining a secret underground

1188
00:52:36,530 --> 00:52:34,680
base under Archuleta peak near Dulce in

1189
00:52:38,150 --> 00:52:36,540
Northwestern New Mexico

1190
00:52:40,010 --> 00:52:38,160
and for having supplied the U.S

1191
00:52:41,510 --> 00:52:40,020
government with alien space hardware and

1192
00:52:44,030 --> 00:52:41,520
weapons which ultimately proved

1193
00:52:45,770 --> 00:52:44,040
defective or which were caused to crash

1194
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:45,780
thus leaving human civilization

1195
00:52:50,390 --> 00:52:48,420
virtually defenseless against invasion

1196
00:52:52,069 --> 00:52:50,400
as the early 80s went on people

1197
00:52:54,670 --> 00:52:52,079
throughout the UFO field would interview

1198
00:52:57,109 --> 00:52:54,680
benowitz and he would tell the story

1199
00:52:59,690 --> 00:52:57,119
taken from his own research I mean he

1200
00:53:01,309 --> 00:52:59,700
had a computer that was decrypting these

1201
00:53:03,530 --> 00:53:01,319
signals and translating it we talked

1202
00:53:06,290 --> 00:53:03,540
about this in a previous episode I can't

1203
00:53:08,690 --> 00:53:06,300
remember which one but more points out

1204
00:53:11,089 --> 00:53:08,700
that Paul was quote convincing and

1205
00:53:13,609 --> 00:53:11,099
compelling in telling these tales and

1206
00:53:17,930 --> 00:53:13,619
it's not surprising that people believed

1207
00:53:20,569 --> 00:53:17,940
it but more was there as these stories

1208
00:53:22,730 --> 00:53:20,579
were taking shape and he saw how they

1209
00:53:27,650 --> 00:53:22,740
came about and what the root of them was

1210
00:53:30,049 --> 00:53:27,660
and again what this was encouraging in

1211
00:53:32,870 --> 00:53:30,059
benowitz's thinking I was personally

1212
00:53:35,450 --> 00:53:32,880
aware of the intelligence community's

1213
00:53:39,710 --> 00:53:35,460
concerted efforts to systematically

1214
00:53:41,450 --> 00:53:39,720
confuse discourage and discredit Paul by

1215
00:53:44,270 --> 00:53:41,460
providing him with a large body of

1216
00:53:46,370 --> 00:53:44,280
information on the subject of UFOs the

1217
00:53:49,609 --> 00:53:46,380
malevolent aliens who allegedly pilot

1218
00:53:51,170 --> 00:53:49,619
them the technology they employ and the

1219
00:53:53,390 --> 00:53:51,180
underground bases they supposedly

1220
00:53:55,250 --> 00:53:53,400
possess and occupy

1221
00:53:57,470 --> 00:53:55,260
the entire story

1222
00:53:59,210 --> 00:53:57,480
of a secret treaty between the U.S

1223
00:54:01,730 --> 00:53:59,220
government and the aliens

1224
00:54:04,910 --> 00:54:01,740
have exchanges of Technology between us

1225
00:54:07,730 --> 00:54:04,920
and the aliens of battles between aliens

1226
00:54:09,710 --> 00:54:07,740
and American armed forces and if aliens

1227
00:54:11,390 --> 00:54:09,720
allegedly having implanted hundreds of

1228
00:54:13,250 --> 00:54:11,400
thousands if not millions of human

1229
00:54:15,710 --> 00:54:13,260
beings for that for the purpose of

1230
00:54:19,430 --> 00:54:15,720
taking over the world and using us as

1231
00:54:21,890 --> 00:54:19,440
cattle were slaves came about

1232
00:54:23,329 --> 00:54:21,900
as a result of the disinformation

1233
00:54:25,130 --> 00:54:23,339
process

1234
00:54:27,410 --> 00:54:25,140
I know

1235
00:54:29,930 --> 00:54:27,420
because I was in a position to observe

1236
00:54:32,630 --> 00:54:29,940
much of this process as it unfolded

1237
00:54:35,270 --> 00:54:32,640
and I was providing regularly regular

1238
00:54:37,069 --> 00:54:35,280
reports on its Effectiveness to some of

1239
00:54:38,510 --> 00:54:37,079
the very people who were doing it to

1240
00:54:42,170 --> 00:54:38,520
Paul

1241
00:54:43,609 --> 00:54:42,180
and I can tell you that it was effective

1242
00:54:46,010 --> 00:54:43,619
because I watched Paul become

1243
00:54:48,470 --> 00:54:46,020
systematically more paranoid

1244
00:54:50,390 --> 00:54:48,480
and more emotionally unstable

1245
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:50,400
as he tried to assimilate what was

1246
00:54:56,109 --> 00:54:53,220
happening to him they were overloading

1247
00:55:00,170 --> 00:54:56,119
this man's mind with this information

1248
00:55:04,670 --> 00:55:02,210
it's strange

1249
00:55:06,770 --> 00:55:04,680
um you read books like Greg Bishop's

1250
00:55:10,430 --> 00:55:06,780
project beta and it's very clear that

1251
00:55:11,870 --> 00:55:10,440
you know while the things that were you

1252
00:55:14,690 --> 00:55:11,880
know the information disinformation

1253
00:55:17,270 --> 00:55:14,700
misinformation passed to

1254
00:55:19,250 --> 00:55:17,280
um benowitz uh was was not good for him

1255
00:55:22,250 --> 00:55:19,260
it's clear from

1256
00:55:25,849 --> 00:55:22,260
reading about it from a variety of of

1257
00:55:29,329 --> 00:55:25,859
sources that that benowitz was also you

1258
00:55:30,049 --> 00:55:29,339
know not doing himself any favors as far

1259
00:55:31,490 --> 00:55:30,059
as

1260
00:55:34,849 --> 00:55:31,500
um you know believing

1261
00:55:37,670 --> 00:55:34,859
things and and and sort of sort of you

1262
00:55:40,490 --> 00:55:37,680
know fabricating or accepting all these

1263
00:55:41,809 --> 00:55:40,500
things and not being as critical as he

1264
00:55:44,750 --> 00:55:41,819
could have been and this goes all the

1265
00:55:46,250 --> 00:55:44,760
way back to you know 1979 when when Jim

1266
00:55:48,290 --> 00:55:46,260
and Carl Lawrence and were like yeah he

1267
00:55:49,430 --> 00:55:48,300
he's pretty much decided what he wants

1268
00:55:51,049 --> 00:55:49,440
to

1269
00:55:52,790 --> 00:55:51,059
um believe is true and that's the

1270
00:55:55,609 --> 00:55:52,800
conclusion he's going to come to it's

1271
00:55:57,950 --> 00:55:55,619
not an ethical out for the people doing

1272
00:55:58,730 --> 00:55:57,960
the misinformation don't don't get me

1273
00:56:01,430 --> 00:55:58,740
wrong

1274
00:56:05,210 --> 00:56:01,440
um what I'm saying is with in benowitz

1275
00:56:08,390 --> 00:56:05,220
they found somebody who was susceptible

1276
00:56:12,829 --> 00:56:08,400
to what they were selling and they were

1277
00:56:15,049 --> 00:56:12,839
able to use that uh use his his way of

1278
00:56:19,309 --> 00:56:15,059
thinking about this and in his

1279
00:56:22,910 --> 00:56:19,319
um his sort of uh credulousness as as a

1280
00:56:24,290 --> 00:56:22,920
weapon against him and as time goes on

1281
00:56:26,750 --> 00:56:24,300
it becomes clear that that

1282
00:56:29,450 --> 00:56:26,760
psychologically uh and emotionally all

1283
00:56:32,870 --> 00:56:29,460
of this is taking quite a toll on Paul

1284
00:56:33,829 --> 00:56:32,880
benoit's he had guns knives all over his

1285
00:56:35,809 --> 00:56:33,839
house

1286
00:56:38,510 --> 00:56:35,819
he had installed extra locks on his

1287
00:56:40,849 --> 00:56:38,520
doors and he swore that they

1288
00:56:42,530 --> 00:56:40,859
meaning the aliens were coming through

1289
00:56:44,210 --> 00:56:42,540
his walls at night and injecting him

1290
00:56:47,329 --> 00:56:44,220
with Hideous chemicals which would knock

1291
00:56:49,430 --> 00:56:47,339
him out for long periods of time

1292
00:56:51,710 --> 00:56:49,440
he told me they had no light he had no

1293
00:56:53,390 --> 00:56:51,720
idea what they were doing with him after

1294
00:56:55,549 --> 00:56:53,400
he was knocked out

1295
00:56:56,990 --> 00:56:55,559
he began to suffer increasing bouts of

1296
00:56:58,670 --> 00:56:57,000
insomnia

1297
00:57:00,230 --> 00:56:58,680
others took over the day-to-day

1298
00:57:01,790 --> 00:57:00,240
operation of his business as he went

1299
00:57:04,849 --> 00:57:01,800
through this

1300
00:57:07,549 --> 00:57:04,859
one day I watched him eat not a bite of

1301
00:57:10,670 --> 00:57:07,559
his lunch while he chained smoked 28

1302
00:57:13,130 --> 00:57:10,680
cigarettes in 45 minutes

1303
00:57:15,829 --> 00:57:13,140
I knew at that time that he was not far

1304
00:57:17,870 --> 00:57:15,839
from an inevitable nervous collapse

1305
00:57:20,750 --> 00:57:17,880
his health had deteriorated

1306
00:57:22,790 --> 00:57:20,760
he'd lost considerable weight his hands

1307
00:57:25,790 --> 00:57:22,800
shook as if from palsy and he looked

1308
00:57:27,829 --> 00:57:25,800
terrible I tried to counsel him to drop

1309
00:57:30,049 --> 00:57:27,839
the entire UFO thing before his health

1310
00:57:31,730 --> 00:57:30,059
was completely destroyed

1311
00:57:34,250 --> 00:57:31,740
he said he knew things were getting bad

1312
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:34,260
and he was trying to cope with it

1313
00:57:38,630 --> 00:57:36,720
not long afterward I heard he had been

1314
00:57:40,010 --> 00:57:38,640
hospitalized and was under psychiatric

1315
00:57:42,530 --> 00:57:40,020
care

1316
00:57:44,870 --> 00:57:42,540
imagine you're sitting there in the

1317
00:57:46,609 --> 00:57:44,880
audience in 1989 and you've heard these

1318
00:57:49,250 --> 00:57:46,619
stories and you've heard of benowitz and

1319
00:57:51,290 --> 00:57:49,260
you've read the books and the files

1320
00:57:52,970 --> 00:57:51,300
online and the magazine articles that

1321
00:57:55,970 --> 00:57:52,980
have been reiterating the story that

1322
00:57:57,410 --> 00:57:55,980
goes back to benowitz's claims and

1323
00:58:00,530 --> 00:57:57,420
you're sitting there and you're seeing

1324
00:58:03,710 --> 00:58:00,540
this guy with this honestly great voice

1325
00:58:04,790 --> 00:58:03,720
I love Bill Moore's voice it just he

1326
00:58:08,750 --> 00:58:04,800
seems

1327
00:58:10,670 --> 00:58:08,760
he's he sounds uh he sounds credible

1328
00:58:12,349 --> 00:58:10,680
um which is which is good you want to

1329
00:58:14,990 --> 00:58:12,359
sound credible when uh when you're

1330
00:58:16,609 --> 00:58:15,000
speaking I never quite do but um you're

1331
00:58:18,829 --> 00:58:16,619
sitting there you're hearing this this

1332
00:58:20,569 --> 00:58:18,839
sort of very serious man

1333
00:58:21,710 --> 00:58:20,579
um after you know telling you followed

1334
00:58:23,150 --> 00:58:21,720
you some things about itself that it

1335
00:58:26,030 --> 00:58:23,160
might not want to hear

1336
00:58:28,430 --> 00:58:26,040
um sort of go into this entire

1337
00:58:30,109 --> 00:58:28,440
disinformation process and if you're

1338
00:58:32,329 --> 00:58:30,119
sitting there you might be thinking you

1339
00:58:34,910 --> 00:58:32,339
know there's there's two sort of key

1340
00:58:37,190 --> 00:58:34,920
points that are kind of coming out and

1341
00:58:41,390 --> 00:58:37,200
one is that there has been horrible

1342
00:58:44,510 --> 00:58:41,400
action taken against this this man to to

1343
00:58:47,270 --> 00:58:44,520
discredit him um to to

1344
00:58:50,630 --> 00:58:47,280
the intention might not have been to

1345
00:58:52,849 --> 00:58:50,640
drive him to psychological collapse but

1346
00:58:55,309 --> 00:58:52,859
that was the effect of of what was done

1347
00:58:59,210 --> 00:58:55,319
he had been disinformed and misinformed

1348
00:59:01,370 --> 00:58:59,220
and and misled and encouraged in the

1349
00:59:03,829 --> 00:59:01,380
rabbit holes he was going down to his

1350
00:59:05,870 --> 00:59:03,839
own detriment but at the same time

1351
00:59:07,789 --> 00:59:05,880
you're also thinking who else might they

1352
00:59:09,770 --> 00:59:07,799
have done this to we had Robert Hastings

1353
00:59:12,049 --> 00:59:09,780
article where he talks about Linda Howe

1354
00:59:14,630 --> 00:59:12,059
uh having a meeting with Dodie and some

1355
00:59:16,490 --> 00:59:14,640
of those things going on who else have

1356
00:59:20,089 --> 00:59:16,500
they been talking to who else among us

1357
00:59:23,510 --> 00:59:20,099
might be like more telling the Air Force

1358
00:59:25,490 --> 00:59:23,520
or the CIA what we're up to in our own

1359
00:59:27,410 --> 00:59:25,500
investigations and the other thing

1360
00:59:28,370 --> 00:59:27,420
you're thinking is so all of these

1361
00:59:34,609 --> 00:59:28,380
stories

1362
00:59:37,010 --> 00:59:34,619
can't and if you're John Lear and Bill

1363
00:59:38,750 --> 00:59:37,020
English and Bill Moore sitting in that

1364
00:59:41,150 --> 00:59:38,760
Auditorium

1365
00:59:43,730 --> 00:59:41,160
um you might be thinking oh God the The

1366
00:59:45,289 --> 00:59:43,740
Jig Is up my talk tomorrow may not go

1367
00:59:47,450 --> 00:59:45,299
well because

1368
00:59:50,150 --> 00:59:47,460
90 of it

1369
00:59:52,370 --> 00:59:50,160
Moore's talking about as Air Force

1370
00:59:55,130 --> 00:59:52,380
disinformation because these stories are

1371
00:59:58,849 --> 00:59:55,140
still being told and retold and retold

1372
01:00:01,010 --> 00:59:58,859
by ufologists right up to that present

1373
01:00:03,170 --> 01:00:01,020
in 1989.

1374
01:00:05,390 --> 01:00:03,180
strip away the fluff

1375
01:00:08,630 --> 01:00:05,400
and what you have left is essentially

1376
01:00:11,150 --> 01:00:08,640
the benowitz story all over again

1377
01:00:13,069 --> 01:00:11,160
there is no question in my mind that

1378
01:00:14,510 --> 01:00:13,079
it's mostly disinformation pure and

1379
01:00:18,950 --> 01:00:14,520
simple

1380
01:00:21,950 --> 01:00:18,960
and since I know that connections exist

1381
01:00:24,950 --> 01:00:21,960
between those who are spreading it now

1382
01:00:26,990 --> 01:00:24,960
and those who were spreading it then

1383
01:00:29,809 --> 01:00:27,000
both from the benowitz angle and from

1384
01:00:32,510 --> 01:00:29,819
within the intelligence community

1385
01:00:35,510 --> 01:00:32,520
it seems reasonable to conclude that

1386
01:00:37,430 --> 01:00:35,520
those responsible for it are not

1387
01:00:40,069 --> 01:00:37,440
satisfied their task has been completed

1388
01:00:42,289 --> 01:00:40,079
even after all this time

1389
01:00:43,970 --> 01:00:42,299
knowing what is going on however is

1390
01:00:46,430 --> 01:00:43,980
simply not enough

1391
01:00:49,609 --> 01:00:46,440
the real question is why

1392
01:00:53,870 --> 01:00:49,619
that question of why is what Intrigue

1393
01:00:56,150 --> 01:00:53,880
more and that is why he sort of was

1394
01:00:58,130 --> 01:00:56,160
there as he said with his foot in the

1395
01:01:00,289 --> 01:00:58,140
door of a secret counterintelligence

1396
01:01:02,569 --> 01:01:00,299
game that gave every appearance of

1397
01:01:05,089 --> 01:01:02,579
somehow being directly connected to a

1398
01:01:09,530 --> 01:01:05,099
high-level government UFO project

1399
01:01:11,089 --> 01:01:09,540
he wants to know what is so secret that

1400
01:01:13,309 --> 01:01:11,099
they're willing to carry out these

1401
01:01:16,549 --> 01:01:13,319
disinformation campaigns he wants to get

1402
01:01:18,049 --> 01:01:16,559
to the truth and if that means working

1403
01:01:20,829 --> 01:01:18,059
with

1404
01:01:23,390 --> 01:01:20,839
people who are doing some pretty

1405
01:01:24,789 --> 01:01:23,400
questionable things

1406
01:01:27,410 --> 01:01:24,799
yeah

1407
01:01:28,430 --> 01:01:27,420
you're willing to do it if if you want

1408
01:01:32,049 --> 01:01:28,440
to get

1409
01:01:34,849 --> 01:01:32,059
involved in this you're going to have to

1410
01:01:38,089 --> 01:01:34,859
maybe participate in things that you

1411
01:01:41,270 --> 01:01:38,099
might ethically have problems with but

1412
01:01:43,250 --> 01:01:41,280
more explains that disinformation is not

1413
01:01:45,049 --> 01:01:43,260
something that was new and not something

1414
01:01:47,870 --> 01:01:45,059
that was unique to the Paul benowitz

1415
01:01:52,970 --> 01:01:50,210
many ufologists have run up against this

1416
01:01:55,370 --> 01:01:52,980
information over the years

1417
01:01:57,349 --> 01:01:55,380
virtually all of them viewed it as a

1418
01:01:59,690 --> 01:01:57,359
negative process and backed away from it

1419
01:02:01,130 --> 01:01:59,700
either in anger or disgust

1420
01:02:03,230 --> 01:02:01,140
as soon as they discovered what they

1421
01:02:04,970 --> 01:02:03,240
were dealing with

1422
01:02:07,430 --> 01:02:04,980
even today

1423
01:02:09,349 --> 01:02:07,440
the UFO Community unanimously considers

1424
01:02:12,650 --> 01:02:09,359
anyone known or suspected dealing in

1425
01:02:14,630 --> 01:02:12,660
disinformation to be one of the bad guys

1426
01:02:17,329 --> 01:02:14,640
someone to be shunned or avoided at all

1427
01:02:19,190 --> 01:02:17,339
costs and certainly never ever to be

1428
01:02:21,170 --> 01:02:19,200
believed

1429
01:02:23,210 --> 01:02:21,180
I on the other hand determined to take

1430
01:02:26,390 --> 01:02:23,220
quite a different attack

1431
01:02:28,730 --> 01:02:26,400
I would play the disinformation game

1432
01:02:30,410 --> 01:02:28,740
get my hands dirty just often enough to

1433
01:02:32,690 --> 01:02:30,420
lead those directing the process into

1434
01:02:34,670 --> 01:02:32,700
believing that I was doing exactly what

1435
01:02:36,650 --> 01:02:34,680
they wanted me to do

1436
01:02:38,690 --> 01:02:36,660
and all the while

1437
01:02:40,250 --> 01:02:38,700
continue to burrow my way into the

1438
01:02:43,250 --> 01:02:40,260
Matrix so as to learn as much as

1439
01:02:45,049 --> 01:02:43,260
possible about who was directing it and

1440
01:02:47,930 --> 01:02:45,059
why

1441
01:02:49,910 --> 01:02:47,940
it would be a classic case of turning

1442
01:02:51,410 --> 01:02:49,920
the tables on the very ones who were

1443
01:02:54,410 --> 01:02:51,420
most confident that they had the

1444
01:02:56,809 --> 01:02:54,420
situation well in hand

1445
01:02:58,730 --> 01:02:56,819
there was just one thing I needed to do

1446
01:03:00,170 --> 01:02:58,740
this

1447
01:03:03,710 --> 01:03:00,180
secrecy

1448
01:03:05,210 --> 01:03:03,720
I couldn't tell anyone about what I was

1449
01:03:08,150 --> 01:03:05,220
doing

1450
01:03:10,010 --> 01:03:08,160
for if I did and word got back to those

1451
01:03:11,930 --> 01:03:10,020
in control

1452
01:03:16,010 --> 01:03:11,940
I would be immediately cut off and cast

1453
01:03:20,630 --> 01:03:18,710
it was a formidable problem

1454
01:03:22,250 --> 01:03:20,640
some of the contacts I had made during

1455
01:03:24,289 --> 01:03:22,260
the benefits of pharah seemed friendly

1456
01:03:26,030 --> 01:03:24,299
and professed a desire to end the UFO

1457
01:03:28,010 --> 01:03:26,040
cover-up and assist in getting

1458
01:03:30,410 --> 01:03:28,020
government information on UFOs out to

1459
01:03:33,530 --> 01:03:30,420
the public in a slow and methodical

1460
01:03:36,289 --> 01:03:33,540
manner so as not to create panic

1461
01:03:38,329 --> 01:03:36,299
others seem more interested in obtaining

1462
01:03:40,370 --> 01:03:38,339
information from me

1463
01:03:41,809 --> 01:03:40,380
often on what other members of the UFO

1464
01:03:43,730 --> 01:03:41,819
Community were doing

1465
01:03:46,130 --> 01:03:43,740
and sometimes on other completely

1466
01:03:48,170 --> 01:03:46,140
unrelated subjects

1467
01:03:50,809 --> 01:03:48,180
whatever information I managed to get

1468
01:03:52,670 --> 01:03:50,819
from these individuals in return usually

1469
01:03:55,910 --> 01:03:52,680
came as a result of asking just the

1470
01:03:58,250 --> 01:03:55,920
right questions in just the right ways

1471
01:04:00,230 --> 01:03:58,260
sometimes it took months or even years

1472
01:04:02,870 --> 01:04:00,240
of establishing a relationship with

1473
01:04:05,809 --> 01:04:02,880
someone before anyone useful came for

1474
01:04:07,910 --> 01:04:05,819
anything useful came from it

1475
01:04:09,770 --> 01:04:07,920
the most difficult difficult part of it

1476
01:04:12,410 --> 01:04:09,780
all

1477
01:04:14,270 --> 01:04:12,420
was trying to determine what was real

1478
01:04:15,890 --> 01:04:14,280
and what was

1479
01:04:19,630 --> 01:04:15,900
Moore explains that for disinformation

1480
01:04:22,490 --> 01:04:19,640
to work it has to have enough

1481
01:04:25,730 --> 01:04:22,500
leavening of truthful things within it

1482
01:04:29,270 --> 01:04:25,740
to be to be credible so it's very

1483
01:04:32,390 --> 01:04:29,280
difficult to understand exactly what is

1484
01:04:36,170 --> 01:04:32,400
going on and what is true and if you

1485
01:04:38,930 --> 01:04:36,180
push back if you kick if you tell people

1486
01:04:43,430 --> 01:04:38,940
what's going on you get nothing

1487
01:04:45,829 --> 01:04:43,440
and then you're you're playing like he

1488
01:04:47,930 --> 01:04:45,839
says it's it's a dangerous game

1489
01:04:49,849 --> 01:04:47,940
one of the things I've always thought

1490
01:04:52,010 --> 01:04:49,859
because I I've read in in the various

1491
01:04:53,990 --> 01:04:52,020
books that that Moore did try to tell

1492
01:04:56,450 --> 01:04:54,000
benowitz you know not all of this is

1493
01:04:59,210 --> 01:04:56,460
true this is you know they might be

1494
01:05:02,329 --> 01:04:59,220
screwing with you and benowitz you know

1495
01:05:04,130 --> 01:05:02,339
he he was reluctant to believe that he

1496
01:05:05,809 --> 01:05:04,140
trusted what the Air Force people were

1497
01:05:06,589 --> 01:05:05,819
telling him

1498
01:05:10,849 --> 01:05:06,599
um

1499
01:05:13,309 --> 01:05:10,859
so Moore did sort of try to do that he

1500
01:05:14,210 --> 01:05:13,319
says but I always sort of wondered you

1501
01:05:16,250 --> 01:05:14,220
know

1502
01:05:17,569 --> 01:05:16,260
what couldn't he have just blown the

1503
01:05:19,370 --> 01:05:17,579
whistle on the whole thing but if you

1504
01:05:21,650 --> 01:05:19,380
blow the whistle on the whole thing two

1505
01:05:25,730 --> 01:05:21,660
things happen one you're cut off right

1506
01:05:27,410 --> 01:05:25,740
and two you're seen as somebody that

1507
01:05:28,870 --> 01:05:27,420
betrayed the UFO Community because you

1508
01:05:32,930 --> 01:05:28,880
got involved with it in the first place

1509
01:05:34,670 --> 01:05:32,940
so no matter which thing you do you're

1510
01:05:36,289 --> 01:05:34,680
kind of stuck if you want to try to

1511
01:05:37,670 --> 01:05:36,299
fight what's going on

1512
01:05:40,609 --> 01:05:37,680
um and

1513
01:05:42,890 --> 01:05:40,619
again you get uh you get nothing more

1514
01:05:45,710 --> 01:05:42,900
will talk about the MJ 12 papers and

1515
01:05:48,549 --> 01:05:45,720
also talk about the Aztec UFO crash as

1516
01:05:51,230 --> 01:05:48,559
being an example of this government

1517
01:05:53,990 --> 01:05:51,240
disinformation and that's too complex a

1518
01:05:56,210 --> 01:05:54,000
thing to get into here but um the Aztec

1519
01:05:58,549 --> 01:05:56,220
crash is one of those we need to do an

1520
01:06:01,670 --> 01:05:58,559
episode in the Aztec crash actually at

1521
01:06:04,250 --> 01:06:01,680
one of these times as more began to wrap

1522
01:06:06,829 --> 01:06:04,260
up the main part of his presentation you

1523
01:06:08,870 --> 01:06:06,839
can hear on the recording the audience

1524
01:06:13,190 --> 01:06:08,880
getting kind of restless to the point

1525
01:06:15,170 --> 01:06:13,200
where the MC has to step in I've held my

1526
01:06:16,549 --> 01:06:15,180
silence on this matter for more than six

1527
01:06:20,089 --> 01:06:16,559
years

1528
01:06:26,510 --> 01:06:22,430
disinformation

1529
01:06:28,549 --> 01:06:26,520
game

1530
01:06:30,650 --> 01:06:28,559
those who play it are completely aware

1531
01:06:33,349 --> 01:06:30,660
that an operation's success is dependent

1532
01:06:34,730 --> 01:06:33,359
upon dropping information upon a Target

1533
01:06:36,349 --> 01:06:34,740
or Mark

1534
01:06:37,849 --> 01:06:36,359
in such a way that the person will

1535
01:06:39,890 --> 01:06:37,859
accept it as truth

1536
01:06:41,870 --> 01:06:39,900
and will repeat and even defend it to

1537
01:06:43,730 --> 01:06:41,880
others as if it were true

1538
01:06:46,910 --> 01:06:43,740
[Music]

1539
01:06:48,470 --> 01:06:46,920
once this has been accomplished

1540
01:06:54,289 --> 01:06:48,480
certainly have a number of rude people

1541
01:06:58,549 --> 01:06:56,450
once this has been accomplished the work

1542
01:06:59,870 --> 01:06:58,559
of the counterintelligence specialist is

1543
01:07:01,609 --> 01:06:59,880
complete

1544
01:07:02,990 --> 01:07:01,619
they can simply withdraw in the

1545
01:07:04,670 --> 01:07:03,000
confidence that the Dirty Work of

1546
01:07:06,770 --> 01:07:04,680
spreading their poison seeds will be

1547
01:07:08,569 --> 01:07:06,780
done by others

1548
01:07:10,069 --> 01:07:08,579
those who want proof of how well the

1549
01:07:11,569 --> 01:07:10,079
process works they'd only look around

1550
01:07:16,430 --> 01:07:11,579
you

1551
01:07:18,710 --> 01:07:16,440
repeats an unverified or unsubstantiated

1552
01:07:20,089 --> 01:07:18,720
bit of information without qualifying it

1553
01:07:22,609 --> 01:07:20,099
as such

1554
01:07:24,650 --> 01:07:22,619
you are contributing to that process

1555
01:07:26,930 --> 01:07:24,660
and every time you do it

1556
01:07:28,250 --> 01:07:26,940
somebody in a need to know position sits

1557
01:07:30,710 --> 01:07:28,260
back and has a horse laugh at your

1558
01:07:33,289 --> 01:07:30,720
expense he's not wrong

1559
01:07:35,690 --> 01:07:33,299
he's not wrong but imagine imagine

1560
01:07:39,289 --> 01:07:35,700
sitting in that audience getting

1561
01:07:41,510 --> 01:07:39,299
lectured about disinformation and being

1562
01:07:42,950 --> 01:07:41,520
a sucker for disinformation and not

1563
01:07:46,190 --> 01:07:42,960
being a mark

1564
01:07:50,270 --> 01:07:46,200
being lectured on that by a guy who

1565
01:07:52,970 --> 01:07:50,280
stood by while a disinformation

1566
01:07:53,990 --> 01:07:52,980
operation took place right in front of

1567
01:07:57,529 --> 01:07:54,000
him

1568
01:07:59,150 --> 01:07:57,539
and wrought all of this Havoc all these

1569
01:08:02,109 --> 01:07:59,160
underground based stories and alien

1570
01:08:05,089 --> 01:08:02,119
implant stories he's

1571
01:08:06,470 --> 01:08:05,099
scolding the audience for being suckers

1572
01:08:09,289 --> 01:08:06,480
about this

1573
01:08:12,349 --> 01:08:09,299
but he might not have been a perpetrator

1574
01:08:16,189 --> 01:08:12,359
but he was certainly there witnessing

1575
01:08:19,910 --> 01:08:16,199
all of this take place so regardless of

1576
01:08:22,150 --> 01:08:19,920
how correct some of what Moore is saying

1577
01:08:25,430 --> 01:08:22,160
may be about the dangers of

1578
01:08:27,950 --> 01:08:25,440
misinformation and about how the UFO

1579
01:08:30,829 --> 01:08:27,960
Community needs to be on guard against

1580
01:08:32,809 --> 01:08:30,839
some some things I can imagine the

1581
01:08:34,729 --> 01:08:32,819
people in the audience are like you are

1582
01:08:38,150 --> 01:08:34,739
not the one to be telling us this pal

1583
01:08:39,650 --> 01:08:38,160
you are you are not that so now it's

1584
01:08:43,669 --> 01:08:39,660
time for the question and answer session

1585
01:08:47,390 --> 01:08:43,679
and what's glorious about this is that

1586
01:08:49,729 --> 01:08:47,400
um Moore will be asking himself I just

1587
01:08:52,370 --> 01:08:49,739
have to laugh because everybody who's

1588
01:08:55,370 --> 01:08:52,380
spoken in front of a crowd especially a

1589
01:08:56,990 --> 01:08:55,380
crowd that is that is fairly hostile I

1590
01:08:59,570 --> 01:08:57,000
spoke in front of a an incredibly

1591
01:09:01,849 --> 01:08:59,580
hostile crowd one time and not on a UFO

1592
01:09:03,829 --> 01:09:01,859
thing it was something else an

1593
01:09:07,189 --> 01:09:03,839
incredibly hostile crowd and if I could

1594
01:09:10,370 --> 01:09:07,199
have done this bill Moore gimmick of

1595
01:09:13,490 --> 01:09:10,380
asking myself the questions that I

1596
01:09:16,010 --> 01:09:13,500
wanted to answer it would have been much

1597
01:09:17,209 --> 01:09:16,020
more fun for everybody so we're not

1598
01:09:19,729 --> 01:09:17,219
going to go through all of these

1599
01:09:22,970 --> 01:09:19,739
questions there's a lot of them but

1600
01:09:24,769 --> 01:09:22,980
um here's here's a question Mr Moore are

1601
01:09:26,630 --> 01:09:24,779
you currently involved with providing

1602
01:09:29,689 --> 01:09:26,640
information to any government agency

1603
01:09:33,950 --> 01:09:29,699
about UFOs or about people involved with

1604
01:09:36,830 --> 01:09:33,960
the UFO phenomenon no I have not had any

1605
01:09:43,340 --> 01:09:36,840
such involvement since 1984. thank you

1606
01:09:43,350 --> 01:09:53,689
[Music]

1607
01:09:58,610 --> 01:09:56,810
frankly I'm a little ashamed of some

1608
01:10:12,310 --> 01:09:58,620
people in this audience regardless of

1609
01:10:18,050 --> 01:10:15,290
this is not a debate

1610
01:10:21,350 --> 01:10:18,060
it is a paper trying to be presented now

1611
01:10:25,189 --> 01:10:22,630
thank you

1612
01:10:28,010 --> 01:10:25,199
yeah show a little courtesy to the the

1613
01:10:30,290 --> 01:10:28,020
government mole who is you know

1614
01:10:32,930 --> 01:10:30,300
scolding you about your gullibility

1615
01:10:34,850 --> 01:10:32,940
here's another question Mr Moore are you

1616
01:10:37,189 --> 01:10:34,860
presently involved in knowingly

1617
01:10:40,430 --> 01:10:37,199
spreading any sort of disinformation

1618
01:10:42,830 --> 01:10:40,440
about UFOs no

1619
01:10:44,270 --> 01:10:42,840
the only conscious involvement I had

1620
01:10:46,970 --> 01:10:44,280
ever had

1621
01:10:49,130 --> 01:10:46,980
with a disinformation operation

1622
01:10:52,189 --> 01:10:49,140
was that which I have already outlined

1623
01:10:55,430 --> 01:10:52,199
in connection with the benowitz case

1624
01:10:57,709 --> 01:10:55,440
fair enough Mr Moore are you presently

1625
01:11:01,310 --> 01:10:57,719
or have you ever been on the payroll of

1626
01:11:04,189 --> 01:11:01,320
any agency of the US government no I

1627
01:11:06,649 --> 01:11:04,199
have to admit my paranoia noticed how

1628
01:11:11,149 --> 01:11:06,659
that question was worded on the payroll

1629
01:11:14,950 --> 01:11:11,159
of an agency of the U.S government

1630
01:11:19,130 --> 01:11:14,960
um not a question like did anybody ever

1631
01:11:22,490 --> 01:11:19,140
give you any money for any reason

1632
01:11:25,550 --> 01:11:22,500
at some time that was possibly shortly

1633
01:11:26,870 --> 01:11:25,560
after providing information about Paul

1634
01:11:28,970 --> 01:11:26,880
benowitz

1635
01:11:32,330 --> 01:11:28,980
um just like a guy in the street hands

1636
01:11:33,709 --> 01:11:32,340
you an envelope no 500 wow luckily I'm

1637
01:11:36,950 --> 01:11:33,719
not on the payroll of a government

1638
01:11:38,270 --> 01:11:36,960
agency but you know I'm you know I I was

1639
01:11:43,430 --> 01:11:38,280
gonna say I have no reason not to take

1640
01:11:45,410 --> 01:11:43,440
more at his word I we kind of do perhaps

1641
01:11:49,430 --> 01:11:45,420
um another question let's let's do one

1642
01:11:51,530 --> 01:11:49,440
more question for Mr Moore Mr Moore do

1643
01:11:54,830 --> 01:11:51,540
you know anything about the so-called

1644
01:11:57,770 --> 01:11:54,840
Weitzel letter yes

1645
01:11:59,630 --> 01:11:57,780
the letter which is Loosely based upon

1646
01:12:02,330 --> 01:11:59,640
an actual UFO case

1647
01:12:05,689 --> 01:12:02,340
was written anonymously to afro in July

1648
01:12:07,669 --> 01:12:05,699
of 1980 by Richard Cody

1649
01:12:09,229 --> 01:12:07,679
is directly related to the benowitz

1650
01:12:11,950 --> 01:12:09,239
affair

1651
01:12:14,570 --> 01:12:11,960
essentially it was bait

1652
01:12:17,390 --> 01:12:14,580
kfosi knew that benowitz had closed ties

1653
01:12:18,950 --> 01:12:17,400
with the apro organization at the time

1654
01:12:21,169 --> 01:12:18,960
they were interested in recruiting

1655
01:12:22,610 --> 01:12:21,179
someone within the organization who

1656
01:12:24,649 --> 01:12:22,620
would be in a position to provide them

1657
01:12:27,169 --> 01:12:24,659
with feedback on benowitz's activities

1658
01:12:30,830 --> 01:12:27,179
and Communications

1659
01:12:32,570 --> 01:12:30,840
since I was an April board member

1660
01:12:34,250 --> 01:12:32,580
the white cell letter was passed to me

1661
01:12:35,689 --> 01:12:34,260
for Action shortly after it had been

1662
01:12:37,550 --> 01:12:35,699
received

1663
01:12:39,410 --> 01:12:37,560
it was not long thereafter that I came

1664
01:12:40,910 --> 01:12:39,420
to know Richard Doby

1665
01:12:43,010 --> 01:12:40,920
and began to provide him with

1666
01:12:45,649 --> 01:12:43,020
information about benowitz in his case

1667
01:12:48,950 --> 01:12:45,659
so if you're looking for

1668
01:12:50,810 --> 01:12:48,960
connections between apro and the the

1669
01:12:53,450 --> 01:12:50,820
intelligence Community or the military

1670
01:12:54,830 --> 01:12:53,460
community and and sort of those sorts of

1671
01:12:58,010 --> 01:12:54,840
things that Lester asked about in his

1672
01:13:00,350 --> 01:12:58,020
email there's kind of an example apro

1673
01:13:03,410 --> 01:13:00,360
was sort of targeted with this

1674
01:13:07,870 --> 01:13:03,420
disinformation as a way to draw somebody

1675
01:13:12,770 --> 01:13:07,880
into this into this project

1676
01:13:14,390 --> 01:13:12,780
Moore's speech would generate a lot of

1677
01:13:16,970 --> 01:13:14,400
um a lot of interest it was written up

1678
01:13:19,910 --> 01:13:16,980
in the the issue of UFO magazine

1679
01:13:22,610 --> 01:13:19,920
following this uh with the headline uh

1680
01:13:25,130 --> 01:13:22,620
disinformation Ploy revealed UFO

1681
01:13:29,030 --> 01:13:25,140
researchers confessional and in the

1682
01:13:32,209 --> 01:13:29,040
August 1989 issue of the mufon UFO

1683
01:13:36,050 --> 01:13:32,219
Journal their official sort of recap of

1684
01:13:38,330 --> 01:13:36,060
the Symposium would have this to say

1685
01:13:39,890 --> 01:13:38,340
Moore was being vocally challenged by

1686
01:13:41,990 --> 01:13:39,900
different accusers in the audience who

1687
01:13:43,850 --> 01:13:42,000
interrupted on several occasions I

1688
01:13:46,070 --> 01:13:43,860
personally was transfixed as I'm sure

1689
01:13:47,510 --> 01:13:46,080
were others by the tail unfolding a

1690
01:13:48,890 --> 01:13:47,520
couple of people even stumbled out of

1691
01:13:51,229 --> 01:13:48,900
the lecture hall gripped by a

1692
01:13:53,750 --> 01:13:51,239
combination of shock anguish and tears

1693
01:13:55,250 --> 01:13:53,760
more than a few misunderstood more to

1694
01:13:56,990 --> 01:13:55,260
say that he willingly and knowingly

1695
01:13:58,850 --> 01:13:57,000
participated in the dispersal of

1696
01:13:59,870 --> 01:13:58,860
disinformation which included the

1697
01:14:02,330 --> 01:13:59,880
distribution of counterfeit

1698
01:14:03,950 --> 01:14:02,340
documentation Moore said later that he

1699
01:14:05,689 --> 01:14:03,960
was not aware the documents were false

1700
01:14:08,630 --> 01:14:05,699
at the time and that he withdrew from

1701
01:14:10,610 --> 01:14:08,640
participation sometime in 1984 when he

1702
01:14:12,530 --> 01:14:10,620
learned the full extent of the deception

1703
01:14:14,209 --> 01:14:12,540
allegations and insinuations about

1704
01:14:16,550 --> 01:14:14,219
Moore's activities have been circulating

1705
01:14:18,169 --> 01:14:16,560
for some time it might be presumptuous

1706
01:14:19,729 --> 01:14:18,179
to suggest that their open airing

1707
01:14:22,370 --> 01:14:19,739
resulted in his remarkable statement

1708
01:14:24,470 --> 01:14:22,380
maybe it was only one of many straws

1709
01:14:26,510 --> 01:14:24,480
what remains to be seen however is

1710
01:14:28,970 --> 01:14:26,520
whether Moore's Symposium speech clears

1711
01:14:31,610 --> 01:14:28,980
up or muddies further ufology's already

1712
01:14:33,470 --> 01:14:31,620
murky Waters hopefully it will leave the

1713
01:14:35,689 --> 01:14:33,480
lake a whole lot less contaminated with

1714
01:14:37,850 --> 01:14:35,699
the pollutants of rumor innuendo and

1715
01:14:39,890 --> 01:14:37,860
deliberately doctored data at any rate

1716
01:14:42,229 --> 01:14:39,900
Moore left the stage through a rear door

1717
01:14:43,840 --> 01:14:42,239
counseling patience and promising all

1718
01:14:45,470 --> 01:14:43,850
would be revealed in due time

1719
01:14:50,450 --> 01:14:45,480
[Music]

1720
01:14:52,490 --> 01:14:50,460
that seems a little optimistic honestly

1721
01:14:54,350 --> 01:14:52,500
um Greg Bishop writing in Project beta

1722
01:14:57,470 --> 01:14:54,360
and and talking elsewhere about this he

1723
01:14:59,870 --> 01:14:57,480
was there present at the at the time uh

1724
01:15:01,610 --> 01:14:59,880
noted that uh when a lot of the

1725
01:15:05,330 --> 01:15:01,620
references to some people leaving in

1726
01:15:09,050 --> 01:15:05,340
tears uh UFO magazine editor Vicki

1727
01:15:10,430 --> 01:15:09,060
Cooper was one who ran crying from the

1728
01:15:13,130 --> 01:15:10,440
auditorium

1729
01:15:15,830 --> 01:15:13,140
there was a lot of criticism a lot of

1730
01:15:19,010 --> 01:15:15,840
criticism of Moore who would would fade

1731
01:15:21,950 --> 01:15:19,020
from the UFO scene within a few years of

1732
01:15:24,050 --> 01:15:21,960
this it would be hard to trust more or

1733
01:15:27,649 --> 01:15:24,060
anybody who had been in that position

1734
01:15:29,330 --> 01:15:27,659
ever again really he would surface from

1735
01:15:31,610 --> 01:15:29,340
time to time he's interviewed by Greg

1736
01:15:34,970 --> 01:15:31,620
Bishop in an issue of excluded middle

1737
01:15:38,149 --> 01:15:34,980
magazine and he was of course a source

1738
01:15:40,189 --> 01:15:38,159
for the book project beta I do not know

1739
01:15:44,030 --> 01:15:40,199
if they are still out there on the

1740
01:15:45,649 --> 01:15:44,040
internet but years ago probably

1741
01:15:47,330 --> 01:15:45,659
gosh

1742
01:15:50,930 --> 01:15:47,340
15

1743
01:15:54,350 --> 01:15:50,940
maybe more years ago uh

1744
01:15:56,930 --> 01:15:54,360
Bishop had more on a few episodes of

1745
01:15:59,810 --> 01:15:56,940
radio mysterioso and those interviews

1746
01:16:00,890 --> 01:15:59,820
were oh yeah at least 15 years ago

1747
01:16:02,750 --> 01:16:00,900
because it was right around the time

1748
01:16:04,370 --> 01:16:02,760
project beta came out

1749
01:16:06,410 --> 01:16:04,380
so

1750
01:16:08,330 --> 01:16:06,420
okay yeah a while ago

1751
01:16:09,169 --> 01:16:08,340
um if they're still out there track them

1752
01:16:10,910 --> 01:16:09,179
down

1753
01:16:12,709 --> 01:16:10,920
um if I can find them I'll throw the

1754
01:16:14,390 --> 01:16:12,719
links up in the show notes but I'm not

1755
01:16:16,850 --> 01:16:14,400
going to you know

1756
01:16:18,050 --> 01:16:16,860
knock myself out to do so

1757
01:16:19,910 --> 01:16:18,060
um because we all have the internet

1758
01:16:21,950 --> 01:16:19,920
right but these are these are really

1759
01:16:24,830 --> 01:16:21,960
interesting interviews and and more is

1760
01:16:26,450 --> 01:16:24,840
an interesting guy it's um

1761
01:16:28,550 --> 01:16:26,460
I don't know him personally I've never

1762
01:16:30,530 --> 01:16:28,560
met him I've never talked to him I I

1763
01:16:32,570 --> 01:16:30,540
probably never will he'd have no reason

1764
01:16:34,729 --> 01:16:32,580
to talk to somebody like me

1765
01:16:38,750 --> 01:16:34,739
um especially after sort of being snarky

1766
01:16:41,030 --> 01:16:38,760
on the podcast here about him but

1767
01:16:43,370 --> 01:16:41,040
here's my question for you actually it's

1768
01:16:45,590 --> 01:16:43,380
my question for all of us as I as I I

1769
01:16:49,209 --> 01:16:45,600
bring this to a close here's my question

1770
01:16:54,470 --> 01:16:49,219
imagine you are more in

1771
01:16:57,410 --> 01:16:54,480
1980 in September of 1980 and you are

1772
01:17:00,590 --> 01:16:57,420
approached by Richard Doty who

1773
01:17:02,090 --> 01:17:00,600
represents somebody who is known as the

1774
01:17:04,550 --> 01:17:02,100
Falcon

1775
01:17:06,950 --> 01:17:04,560
um what would you do

1776
01:17:10,250 --> 01:17:06,960
what would you do let's let's make that

1777
01:17:13,689 --> 01:17:10,260
our question for the The Listener

1778
01:17:17,570 --> 01:17:13,699
feedback section of of the next episode

1779
01:17:20,030 --> 01:17:17,580
what would you do if you were more

1780
01:17:21,950 --> 01:17:20,040
either at the beginning or as things go

1781
01:17:23,810 --> 01:17:21,960
on and as you witness this

1782
01:17:26,930 --> 01:17:23,820
disinformation campaign taking place

1783
01:17:28,729 --> 01:17:26,940
what would you do and and remember you

1784
01:17:31,070 --> 01:17:28,739
are somebody who is a UFO investigator

1785
01:17:33,169 --> 01:17:31,080
you're trying to find the truth

1786
01:17:35,750 --> 01:17:33,179
um what would you do

1787
01:17:37,910 --> 01:17:35,760
it seems like it would be an easy call

1788
01:17:40,370 --> 01:17:37,920
well I wouldn't be a patsy for the

1789
01:17:44,930 --> 01:17:43,370
well nobody sees themselves as a patsy

1790
01:17:47,870 --> 01:17:44,940
for the government they see themselves

1791
01:17:49,550 --> 01:17:47,880
as being a truth Seeker or trying to get

1792
01:17:52,630 --> 01:17:49,560
to information they couldn't get to

1793
01:17:55,430 --> 01:17:52,640
otherwise it's a more complex question

1794
01:17:56,930 --> 01:17:55,440
the more you think about it and I'm not

1795
01:17:59,930 --> 01:17:56,940
sure what I'd do I'll think about it too

1796
01:18:02,689 --> 01:17:59,940
and we'll we'll talk about that next

1797
01:18:04,850 --> 01:18:02,699
time but this is a

1798
01:18:08,149 --> 01:18:04,860
fascinating speech it's an excellent

1799
01:18:10,729 --> 01:18:08,159
speech it's incredibly well done

1800
01:18:12,410 --> 01:18:10,739
um the the get get on YouTube and find

1801
01:18:13,310 --> 01:18:12,420
it uh get the move on journal and find

1802
01:18:15,649 --> 01:18:13,320
it it's

1803
01:18:18,890 --> 01:18:15,659
fascinating stuff and

1804
01:18:21,709 --> 01:18:18,900
apart from the really sort of tragic

1805
01:18:24,169 --> 01:18:21,719
Revelations about what this process

1806
01:18:27,350 --> 01:18:24,179
um how this process contributed to

1807
01:18:30,470 --> 01:18:27,360
um Paul benowitz's misfortunes Moore has

1808
01:18:32,930 --> 01:18:30,480
some incredibly I think accurate and

1809
01:18:37,490 --> 01:18:32,940
incisive things to say about the state

1810
01:18:39,770 --> 01:18:37,500
of UFO Research In 1989 and indeed now

1811
01:18:41,390 --> 01:18:39,780
and yes we can be snarky and say you

1812
01:18:42,530 --> 01:18:41,400
know he's you know he's part of the

1813
01:18:49,850 --> 01:18:42,540
problem

1814
01:18:55,970 --> 01:18:49,860
but still good things to keep in mind

1815
01:19:00,590 --> 01:18:58,010
thanks for listening remember to send in

1816
01:19:02,330 --> 01:19:00,600
your questions and comments and your

1817
01:19:04,610 --> 01:19:02,340
assessment of what you would have done

1818
01:19:06,590 --> 01:19:04,620
in more situation via the usual social

1819
01:19:09,350 --> 01:19:06,600
media or email channels and we'll

1820
01:19:11,630 --> 01:19:09,360
address those next time our associate

1821
01:19:12,950 --> 01:19:11,640
producer is Simpson J Hanover III and

1822
01:19:17,570 --> 01:19:12,960
the saucer life is a production of

1823
01:19:20,390 --> 01:19:17,580
chisomedia LLC chisomedia our heart is

1824
01:19:23,270 --> 01:19:20,400
with the people until next time keep